Thursday, March 5, 2009

Batch 3 Of Project 1135.6 FFGs To Be Ordered

Contractual negotiations for ordering a third batch of three Project 1135.6 guided-missile frigates (FFG) are expected to be wrapped between India's Ministry of Defence and Rosoboronexport State Corp, with contract signature taking place before the year's end. Each of these three FFGs will have a stretched hull with broadened beamwidth to house the vertically-launched Shtil-1 M-SAM and the eight-cell UVLM for the BrahMos vertically-launched supersonic multi-role cruise missile. The on-board mission sensor suite's components are currently being finalised, but the suite will include some 20 systems of non-Russia origin, including the hull-mounted panoramic sonar and the towed-array sonar, the marine navigational radar, and the Link-2 fleetwide communications system.--Prasun K. Sengupta


Anonymous said...

any idea of the price?

Harpreet said...

can you elaborate why the navy is so keen on importing warships but not submarines that are required more urgently?

Prasun K Sengupta said...

The six Scorpenes have already been contracted for, while the nine Type 877EKM SSKs and the four Class 209/Type 1500s are also being progressively upgraded and will last until 2018. Therefore, the submarine fleet upgrade plan is on schedule, but the Navy urgently requires more principal surface combatants to replace the ones like the Leander-class FFGs, Abhay-class ASW corvettes, and the Kashin 2-class DDGs.

Abhinaba said...

Between 70s to 90 Indian navy inducted 15 major battleships(5 destroyers & 10 frigates) .But in between 90s to 2008 INDIA inducted so far only 9 major battleships (3 destroyers & 6 frigates).That is why Indian MoD thinking a next order of additional 3 modified krivak III Class frigates?

Prasun K Sengupta said...

The Navy's domain of maritime awareness (areas of operations) has increased substantially since the end of the Cold War and this calls for an increased fleet strength. Hnce the need for additional principal surface combatants. Also, the on-going construction of new shore-based naval bases and commercial ports calls for procurement of several ASW corvettes required for protecting the harbour approaches. These are some of the reasons why the number of required principal surface combatants is increasing.

Anonymous said...

better not to go for amerikanski stuff as they r prone to bans as they have done with LM2000 for shivaliks

what about rolls royce marine gas turbines,i think they r equally good,better go for rolls royce turbines

and moreover honeywell wants to sell its engine for jaguar upgrade
i don't know what will happen if india buys engines and america imposes ban for no reason and whole jaguar fleet will be stting idle

and also better opt a319 MPA

Prasun K Sengupta said...

You are blindly presuming that what's appeared in the public domain about the LM-2500 fiasco is the truth and that there's no other angle or counter-argument to it. Can you honestly believe that the US will put on hold all such military-industrial cooperation with ALL its allies and friends on such flimsy grounds, even it if is for three months or any other timeframe? Having dealt with the bureaucracies of both the US and India I can state with certainty that the fault lies with the Indian side. If you go deeper into the issue you will find out that some bureaucrat in India's MoD failed to move the requisite files pertaining to the LM-2500 on time in order to ensure that the LM-2500 deal was not subject to the military-industrial ermbargoes that were in any case lifted by the US State Dept way back in early 2002. There's no other explanation. If the so-called US embargoes were in place, then even the GE-built F404-IN-GE-20 turbofans and TPQ-37 counterbattery radars would not have arrived in India by now. Therefore, the story of the LM-2500 embargo as it appears in BROADSWORD is fundamentally flawed. To give you an example of how the MoD bureaucracy functions, when the deal for acquiring 80 Mi-17V-5s was first broached way back in 2004, it took the MoD six months to just draft the minutes of the first meeting between the MoD and Rosoboronexport State Corp, something which in the private sector would have been done within 24 hours!!! Similarly, RAW's Aviation Research Centre has for the past seven years only been negotiating the purchase of three Gulfstream G-550s to replace its existing G-3s and Learjet 29s. Somehow the files don't seem to move ahead. Simiularly, the NTRO, which has bought several tens of millions of dollars worth of ELINT/SIGINT equipment to be installed at its main facility in Dehra Dun (where several hectares of land has already been acquired), has till this day been unable to secure approval from the Govt of India for going ahead with the construction of this facility in Dehra Dun. You want more details about such ghotalas? I'll be glad to oblige you, provided you can survive the sleepless nights tat will follow!!!

Anonymous said...

can u post some brouchers on
IL38 sea dragon suite

and upgraded tu142 has some israeli avionics what about those

Anonymous said...

$ 10 billion is just for 126 aircraft,if our country buy typhoon,f18,gripen,

then there is need for totally different logistic and maintainance infrastucture and weapons and that will cost anohter $ 10 billion as euro and amerikansi infrastrucutre r not so cheap

but with rafale and mig35 v have exixting infrastucture

mig35 will be even cheaper as v already have infrastructure for mig29 because there is more resemblance in between mig29 and mig35 compared to mirage2000 and rafale

exixting weapons for su30mki can be used on mig35 so no buy of weapons

TOT FOR rd33-3 engines and also upgrading mig29 and will have upto 46 mig29k

option for israeli and european weapons and electronics

again don't need to buy extra weapons for mig29k otherwise wich cost in billions

but rafale will be better option in long run

Anonymous said...

rafale looks cute too

Abhinaba said...

Is it possible to conduct a full range (290km)test of Brahmos at Pokhran desert firing range?Prasunda please update about project Nirbhay.

Anonymous said...

what is the difference between mig23bn and mig27

i think they look similar and r used for similar roles

Anonymous said...

rafale looks cute too

but yes again it carry MICA as primary BVR but mig35 carry r77,r27 as primary bvr

both r77,r27 have longer range than MICA

u just c after upgrading mig29 and mirage,mig29 will have superior BVR capability as it will carry r77,and mirage doesn't match that capability as it will carry MICA

on the other hand mirage will have superior ground attack capability and mig29 doesn't match that

Anonymous said...

MICA cost twice as much as r77
but r77 has longer range

but not sure france willing to allow r77 on mirage so that it also acquire same capability as upgraded mig29

Anonymous said...

Target hitting probability of MICA is much better than R-73.

Anonymous said...

2 kilos of indian navy r non operational

first kilo is in hindustan shipyard for lastr 5 years and will take 5 more years for upgrade better send it to russia and they will complete the refit in 2 years

second kilo hit the cargo ship while it was exercising off coast in mumbai

2 type 209 r also in refit

out of 8 remaining kilos i think 7 must be operational

what u think about agostas as pakis have 3 of them,r all agostas always operational

Anonymous said...

is the RCS of an AMRAAM fired is greater than rcs of f22,if that is true than

irbis can detect 0.01 meter square RCS from 90 km then an amraam fired from f22 will have much greater RCS compared to f22 itself,because of its heated tip at mach 4 produces 1200F ON THE TIP and tail is also heated and then that amraam can b detected by irbis e at 120 km and that provides valuable time for su35 to act

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Anon@1:28PM: There are no available brochures of the IL-38SD or Tu-142MSD as these are not being marketed commercially for a global market. These upgrade packages were developed for only the Indian market and therefore only technical presentations have been prepared, not brochures.

To Anon@2:08PM: What exactly do you mean by ToT for RD-33-3 turbofans? Even if the engine manufacturer teaches you to overhaul and service the engine it is known as ToT. Even transferring the technical and operational manuals of a combat aircraft is ToT. So what's all the hype about ToT? Do you mean HAL will be given the know-how and know-why to build the RD-33-3 from locally-sourced raw materials? Well, that will never happen with any turbofan, Russian or non-Russian. It has not happened with the R25-300, R29B, RD-33 and AL-31FP, and it will also never happen with the F414 or EJ200 or M88-3.

To Anon@3:42AM: Observe closely the air intake configurations of the MiG-23BN and MiG-27M and you spot the difference.

To Anon@3:48AM: No Mica AAMs will be acquired by India from MBDA for the upgraded Mirage 2000s. It has already been officially disclosed that the R-27Rs, R-77s and Astra AAMs will be flight-qualified on the upgraded Mirage 2000s, which will all have the DARE-developed, HAL-built open-architecture core avionics computer (inclusive of the mission computer and weapon systems management modules) and it is therefore possible to qualify any kind of weapon system by uploading the necessary applications software.

To Anon@8:59AM: Nine Type 877EKM Kilo-class SSKs are in serviceable condition while seven are operational, with one now in Russia for the mid-life refit. Two Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs are operational and have been upgraded with the same ISUS-90 combat management system and sonars as those to be fitted on the Pakistan Navy Class 212/Type 214 SSKs. The other two Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs are now being upgraded.

To Anon@9:05AM: How can increased heat signature result in increased RCS? How are they linked? Irregardless of the capabilities of the on-board radar (Bars or Irbis-E) the new generation of internal jammers and towed decoys now becoming available will ensure that a combat aircraft's defensive aids suite (including the above-mentioned jammers) will provide adequate survivability against AIM-120-type AAMs.

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Abhinaba: You have raised a very very interesting point, something others (including those self-styled and self-righteous experts running other blogs) have taken for granted and think such issues are not worthy of being investigated. I will very soon upload a story regarding this and you will be shocked after reading the story.

Anonymous said...

to prasun

india is making al31 engine with TVC with components built in india as tech was transfered for how to make and indegenise them,and in same way the rd33-3 engine is being made

for which india paid $ 250 million for 120 such engines for mig29 upgrade

so each engine costs
$ 2.1 million and produces
89kN thrust in reheat

what else u want in this cheap price,at least russkie don't ask so many questions over this like to sign EUM

hal paid around $ 6 million for per f404 engine for LCA

and for buying f414,m88,ej-2000
per engine price these western engines won't be less than $ 8-9 million

although western engines have longer life but they r 4 times more costly

so if ej2000 cost $ 8 million per engine then 4 rd33-3 enines can be bought in $ 8 million and the total life hours of those 4 rd33-3 engines must be much higher than the life hours of single ej2000 engine

so those who compare russina and western engines must c the actual price difference of these engines

this is like more pay more u get,less pay less u get

Prasun K Sengupta said...

Last month at Aero India at the press conference given by Mikhail Pagosyan and Alexey Fedorov, it was clearly stated by both of them to all present at the press conference (and published by the each of the four Show Dailies as well) that NO AL-31FP or RD-33-3 engines are being built in India. What is happening is that these engines are being supplied in completely knocked-down condition and are being licence-assembled by HAL Koraput. In addition, when it comes to depot-level servicing of any Russia-built turbofan, ALL hot-sections of any engine are sent back to Russia where they are overhauled. Therefore, there's no indigenisation of either engine manufacturing or engine MRO in India, period. Till this day HAL has no capability for fabricating single-crystal turbine blades and whenever any turbine/compressor blade is damaged it is sent to UFA for repair. This is a well-documented fact.

Bobs said...

Prasun,I must admit that I think you are the only person who takes great pain to explain the nuances of Indian military tech to civvies...keep up the good work.

thiru said...

Is the design of the Project 1135.6 FFG for India out? I'm a sucker for design's.

Yash said...

thiru @ 2:44pm
hello, rip van winkle !where have you been all these years?..the first ship of the Project 1135.6 is already under construction.

Anonymous said...

to prasun: HAL claiming that they acquired single crystal blade technology for Su-30MKI.
"As HAL will do 80 per cent of the manufacturing, it will acquire new technologies like the directionally solidified blades, which will give us the technology for the future engines. Similarly, from the Sukhoi (Su-30 fighter deal) we acquired the single crystal blade technology, which will be the basis for all future turbine blades. This way, we get to master these technologies and meet our own requirements and exports, which is the thrust at HAL," Mr Mohanty said.

Anonymous said...

thats y i told to prasun about tech transfer of rd33-3 engines,if hal tech for al31 engine then there should be no problem with rd33-3 tech transfer

but he did not beleive

Anonymous said...

heated tip of amraam flying at mach 4 generates 1200F and its heat signature can be easily detected by IRST on new su35bm at 90km

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Bobs: Many thanks.

To Thiru: I have to slightly correct Yash's statement. The first three Project 1135.6 FFGs have been in service since 2002 while the second three FFGs are now being outfitted at Yantar Shipyard in Russia's Kaliningrad enclave. The third three FFGs will be a modified design of the Project 1135.6 FFG.

To Anon@8:29AM: That statement by former HAL Chairman N R Mohanty was made in 2003 but subsequent developments saw HAL abandoning this clause in the Su-30MKI licenced-production agreement as it was cost-prohibitive to acquire and master such technologies. I already gave you the latest quotes coming out of Aero India 2009 from Russian technocrats. If HAL had indeed acquired such technologies from Russia then by now it would have been HAL, and not GTRE or MIDHANI, that would be entrusted with the task of designing and fabricating single crystal turbine blades for the Kaveri turbofan. But that is clearly not the case and MIDHANI continues to do R & D work till this day for developing the metallurgical and industrial production expertise reqd for fabricating single crystal turbine blades. This issue was also extensively deliberated upon during one of the seminars organised by the DRDO during Aero India 2009.

To Anon@8:31AM: There's no IRST in existence that can detect any kind of airborne target out to 90km. If you check out the Su-35BM's IRST brochure brought out by the Urals Optical Mechanical Plant UOMZ you will find out for yourself what the actual figures are.

Anonymous said...

and what are those?

Prasun K Sengupta said...

Not exceeding 35km while cruising at an altitude of 40,000 feet.

fighterclass said...

oh no, not shtil again ! why not barak ?

Anonymous said...

Barak-8 may be the missile on these ships.