Sunday, November 16, 2008

Type 214 SSKs For Pakistan Navy


The top photo shows Pakistan’s Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, Gen Tariq Majid, during his visit to Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW), Marine System Production Facility at Kiel city, Germany, on November 13, 2008. The Type 214 SSK selected by Pakistan is derived from the Type 212 SSK, four of which have begun entering service with the German Navy and were built by HDW and Thyssen Nordseewerke GmbH (TNSW) of Enden, both members of the GSC. The two Type 212s ordered by the Italian Navy are being licence-built by Fincantieri. The Greek Navy has ordered four Type 214 SSKs, while South Korea has ordered three Type 214 SSKs that are being licence-built by Hyundai Heavy Industries. The Type 214, three of which will be acquired by the Pakistan Navy, has an increased diving depth of more than 400 metres (more than 1,400 feet), compared to the Scorpene’s 300 metres. Its hull length is 65 metres and displacement is 1,700 tonnes. Built of austenitic steel (HY-80 and HY-100), the SSK’s buoyancy reserve is in excess of 10%. Four of its eight torpedo launch tubes (equipped with a water ram expulsion system) are capable of firing anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCM). Heavyweight torpedoes used by the Type 214 SSK include the Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei-built Black Shark or STN Atlas’ DM2A4 dual purpose, wire-guided heavy torpedo. Propulsion is provided by two MTU-built 16V396 diesel-electric engines (2,000 kW) serving a 600-900V propulsion battery with a fully integrated auxiliary AIP system based on two PEM (polymer electrolyte membrane) 120kW fuel-cell modules. The propulsion motor is a Siemens Permasyn (Type FR6439-3900KW) low-speed permanently excited electric motor driving a low-noise, skewback 7-blade propeller. Using the AIP system on submerged patrol and intercept missions enables the Type 214 SSK to remain submerged for up to 13 days at a speed of 4 Knots. Submerged sprint speeds of between 16 and 20+ Knots are possible for periods of a few hours several times during a 50-day mission. At a speed of 6 Knots the mission range is almost 12,000nm, while the maximum endurance is 84 days. By 2011, the first 1,980-tonne Type 214 submarine will be delivered to the Pakistan Navy. All three of them will each have on board a diesel propulsion system, with an AIP system using Siemens' polymer electrolyte module (PEM) hydrogen fuel cells. The submarines will be armed with Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes, which is already operational with the Pakistan Navy’s existing three ARMARIS-built Agosta 90B submarines and has also been ordered by Malaysia and India for their Scorpene submarines. The Type 214’s CMS will be ATLAS Elektronik’s ISUS-90. BAE Systems will provide the Link 11 tactical data link.--Prasun K. Sengupta

52 comments:

Austin said...

The Type 214 is a good submarine , though inferior to Type 212.

The Scorpene should be a good match against Type 214 , though we have yet to make a decision on the type of AIP we will be going for ( Fuel cell or MESMA )

It high time that we go for a larger submarine based on Amur 1950 design which comes with Fuel Cell AIP for our new type of SSK with 8 VLS Brahmo or other LACM capability.

Type 214 is a cause of concern , but we can effectively deal with it.

Pritam said...

Prasunji, how do you compare oure Scorpene with U-214??

Can you post some latest details of the following with some pics??

1. P-17 frigates
2. AAD
3. PAD
4. ATV
5. Brahmos-2

Pritam said...

Also new pics of P-15A DDG??

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Austin: The Scorpene's only AIP module option is the MESMA, since no other AIP module has been integrated with the hull and the cost of doing so (as an alternative to MESMA) will be cost-prohibitive and ARMARIS will ensure that this is the case. The larger design you talk about is the S-800 from Fincantieri/Rubin Central Marine Design Bureau, and ARMARIS' SMX-23. From a financial standpoint, the SMX-23 will be preferable as the Navy rightly believes that given MDL's existing industrial partnership tie-up with ARMARIS, a parallel tie-up for the SMX-23 will be cost-saving as well as industrially viable in terms of ToT.
Regarding installation of VLS cells for ASCMs/LACMs like BrahMos, the Indian Navy HQ's view is that it prefers such missiles to be launched from torpedo tubes instead of VLS cells as the former will involve stretching the SSK's hull. And given the fact that the SSK's primary role is that of a hunter-killer platform for both submarine warfare and anti-submarine warfare, priority ought to be given to installation of fuel cell-baed AIP modules instead of VLS mobules for BrahMos. BrahMos Aerospace of course may be disappointed with this view of the Indian Navy, but I believe the Navy knows best what its operational priorities are. Incidentally, earlier plans for installing BrahMos on board the Akula 2 SSGN (INS Chakra) have now been abandoned and the SSGN will now be armed with a complement of Klub-S ASCMs and 3M14E LACMs.

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Austin: Another point that needs highlighting is that the Indian Navy's four upgraded Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs will have the same combat management system and bow-mounted/flank-array sonar suites as those on the Type 214 SSK.
In order to neutralise the threats posed by AIP-equipped SSKs in shallow waters, the Indian Navy needs to acquire hull-mounted ultra low-frequency panoramic sonars as well as ultra low-frequency towed-array sonars and ultra low-frequency dunking sonars. All these will have to be imported as indigenous solutions are currently available only in the low-frequency domain. RFPs for all three types of ultra low-frequency sonars will be issued next month.

max said...

@Prasun

Why doesn't Pakistan buy the Yuan 041 class submarine from its best friend? I heard China offered it to Pakistan, didn't they?

Prasun K Sengupta said...

Are yaar Max, the Type 041 Yuan-class SSK is just like the Type 636 Kilo but has a centralised combat management system(CMS) but of a previous generation (something like that on board the Class 209/Type 1500 SSK when India first bought them in the 1980s). Also, the Yuan-class SSK, like the Kilo, is used for deep-sea patrols and is not at all suitable for shallow-water operations. It is also not known to have an AIP module on board. The Type 214 on the other hand, is smaller, has a state-of-the-art CMS and sonar suite, comes with a fuel cell-based AIP module--in short it has everything you require for shallow water operations, which is exactly what the Pakistan Navy wants to conduct against India. It is not interested in its SSKs patrolling in the high seas or deeper waters. One must also note that unlike the Indian Navy, the Pakistan Navy considers its submarine arm its elite force and to date the majority of successive PN Chiefs have been submariners. By contrast, only two submariners (as far as I know) have become the Indian Navy's CNS.

Max said...

@Prasun

Thanks for the clarification..

max said...

@Prasun

Just did some googling and some sources say Yuan has a Stirling AIP?

Prasun K Sengupta said...

There was a competitive technology demonstration bid between a Stirling AIP module and a fuel cell-based AIP module and the latter eventually won the competition. The newer Type 039G Song-class SSKs to emerge by next year will have such AIPs on board.

max said...

And where does that "fuel cell-based AIP module"

PS: My knowledge in this area not very good or else I won't be asking you. Hope you don't mind.

max said...

I mean: where does that "fuel cell-based AIP module" come from?

Prasun K Sengupta said...

The PLA Navy is doing its own in-house research & development work on a fuel cell-based AIP module. It may have received industrial know-how from Ukraine.

Anonymous said...

macha, have u seen Tamil padam BABA? (Rajnikanth starring)??

Juz answer me first, i'll get to the point later

Anonymous said...

anyway b4 that, pakistan is left with about 1 bil in its coffer. all in each sub may cost close to 1 bil. so who gonna finance this macha?? i know imf has just bailed their arses out with 7 bil but im sure that loan came with the normal imf policies which includes no spending on defense, bail out companies.. etc etc. so dont talk about that. america surely isnt gonna pay for this, and now with the obama govt whos completely against pakistan, it may be possible that even the f16 upgrade deal dont go thru. friends of pakistan group is not helping but just asking pakistan to go to imf. ok what else source of income? macha, got any idea? is it zardari gonna pay from his treasure chest of corrupt money?

Anonymous said...

now is the BEST TIME for india to attack and nulllify pakistan coz they got just 8 bil (1 bil their own + 7 bil imf). actually that 7bil hasnt arrived yet so 1 bil. i think 1 bil cant even be enough to fight for 2 days.

Austin said...

To Prasun:

IN has to decide the type of AIP technology they want , they cannot afford to have two different AIP solution ( MESMA and Fuel Cells ) on two different types of sub i.e Mesma for Scorpene and Fuel Cell for 2nd line of submarine , we need to standardise on AIP technology

From industrial partner and perhaps logistics point of view it makes sense to go for the French Offer.

But then it would be like putting all your eggs in one basket , IN always had the philosophy of operating subs from East and West , like the Kilo and HDW that we operate now.

The IN is also divided with folks who would like western sub and people who would like to opt for Eastern sub technology for their own reasons , since we have opted for one western submarine the other one would be from Russian stable

Not to mention the pressure Russia would be wielding to go for its offer and other sops it can offer.

It looks to me in all probability the S-800 from Fincantieri/Rubin offer should see the light of the day.

The 2nd line of sub will also be built by L&T and not MDL.

VLS for sub is good if you design it as part of sub designed from scratch , if you try to add a VLS module or an AIP module as a plug in then it has its penalty on sub.

VLS system also affords a sub to carry more number of weapons and has flexibility in employment ,using TT for missile would be at the cost of reduced Torpedo a sub can carry , as it has to carry a mix and match of both Torpedo and Missile.

Not to mention you can use the VLS system for other purpose like employment of special forces.

Active Low frequency sonar is something we should have on subs and ships to detect sub in shallow water and to deal with very quite submarine like U-214/Scorpene/Amur and even the modern nuclear ones like Akula 2 , Seawolf type.

Eventually we need DRDO to develop such sonars for all platforms as its not only superior to foreign type in our conditions we save significant money in importing such sonars

Regarding Akula 2 , I think we will be importing one more Akula 2 SSGN besides the Nerpa.

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Austin:
1) I don't see any technical or operational problems with the Navy operating two different types of AIP systems as both will be imported and will come with their own maintenance support packages.

2) The IN never had a philosophy of operating machines from the East and West. This so-called philosophy was imposed politically in the 1970s and 1980s upon the shoulders of the armed forces. That is the reason why when it came to acquiring Western SSKs there was a competitive bidding process between Kockums and HDW while for the Type 877EKM SSKs there was no competitive bidding. If you speak to the naval decision-makers of that time they will all tell you without mincing words that there were no operational plans for acquiring the Kilos, rather there were elaborate plans made for acquiring 12 SSKs of Western design of which six would be for littoral warfare and the other six would be for deep sea patrols. But the political decision to acquire eight Kilo SSKs totally wrecked the IN's undersea warfare force modernisation plans of the day and consequently the entire Class 209/Type 1500 SSK procurtement exercise too became messy and unaffordable. The question of putting all eggs in one basket doesn't arise now since the second basket disappeared in 1991 with the demise of the USSR and Warsaw Pact. There's only one basket left now and that's the West.

3) Russia won't be bidding for the second SSK order. It has officially ceased all marketing efforts in India as it believes its interests will be better served if it lent complete support to the S-800 bid which in any case is a joint Italian-Russian bid.

4) As yet no one has officially stated that the second batch of SSKs would be built by L & T. For one, L & T has no expertise and experience in acting as the prime contractor for building frontline warships, especially SSKs and secondly, L & T will take at least five years to make a dedicated submarine fabrication facility operational and another four to construct the first SSK and that time-frame does not mesh in with the IN's time-line for procuring the follow-on six SSKs. Therefore, the IN will likely nominate a shipyard that already has experience in fabricating SSKs, and the only one at present is MDL.

5) As for VLS or the AIP module, the Navy has clearly stated in its RFI its preference for the AIP module and therefore the VLS is completely out of the reckoning.

6) Regarding the sonar issue, active/passive low-frequency systems like the HUIMSA-NG are inferior to what the Navy wants, which is active/passive ultra low-frequency sonars. There's a distinct difference between the two and the IN clearly wants ultra low-frequency solutions which have to be imported as there are no locally developed solutions available in the foreseeable future. Contrary to what many may be led to believe, India does not possess the necessary human resource expertise or industrial infrastructure required to make any kind of ultra low-frequency sonars and it is precisely for this reason that it has been negotiating the import of such systems and thus far companies like L-3 Ocean Systems, EDO Corp and THALES have all spent several million dollars in their marketing efforts in India since 2003. If the requirements were not serious I very much doubt such companies would have spent the amount of time and effort that they have thus far.

7) Lastly, regarding the Akula 2, the decision of the IN as of now is to go for one unit only for lease, as the existing shore-based support establishments can support only one such SSGN at a time and there's nothing in the Navy's budgetary spending data over the next five years to indicate that such shore-based establishments are being expanded to accommodate a second SSGN.

Austin said...

To Prasun,

1) The idea of a common AIP , is to standardize on AIP technology which the Navy wants , the IN has done some internal studies and found AIP technology based on Fuel Cell to be superior , so it makes sense to standardize on one technology , helps in training , maintenance and logistics (shore) point of view.

Ofcourse DCN will be tom tomming on why MESMA is the best , but then for some reason if IN opts for MESA we should standardize that for any future SSK we build

2 ) Its true that IN per say did not have a philosophy of operating two different types of sub and geo political and cost were the factor in opting for Kilo , but then you cannot rule out the same factor now may be to a lesser extent.

But since we have been operating both type of sub , the opinion is divided in the Navy as to why one should be chosen over the other ,there are breed of officers at the decision making level who have lived and worked on Russian submarine so may have their own school of thoughts , much like it goes for western subs.

At the end of the day the decision is made by babus and politician , the IN can recommend , but it does not control what it recommends is what it will get always , technical and operational factor is just one part of the decision making matrix.

3 )There have been talks of building 2nd line of sub by L&T and AFAIK L&T has been working on building the infra without much fanfare. MDL has its hand full with building Scorpene and there is also a need for competition or else MDL takes its own sweet time build any thing from ships to submarine.

4 ) Why cant you have a AIP and a VLS module ? So far no one has build such thing since there was no requirement , IN has asked for a large SSK for its 2nd line of sub with ocean going capability , it may go for AIP and VLS both.

5 ) Yes I understand what you are trying to say , Ultra Low frequency sonar is absolutely required to detect very very silent SSK/SSN , and for detecting subs in shallow water , IN may have to opt for imported systems right now , but we need to build this capability inhouse eventually , jusy as we did for other type of sonars.

6 ) I am not too sure if Akula or ATV is part of the regular navy budget , it perhaps is part of special fund.

From what it looks now , even the Nerpa deal seems to be in trouble

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20081118/118370554.html

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Austin: Am outlining a couple of clarifications here:
1) The Indian Navy has never asked for or demanded the mastering of an industrial-level technologies related to AIP modules. It doesn't need to as it is of no use. It has always demanded only operational sovereignty and so that it can exploit the capabilities that it is bought/inducted to the hilt during naval operations. Therefore be it fuel cell-based or MESMA-based, as long as the Navy has in-house capabilities for operating, maintaining and overhauling such AIP systems, it is very happy. The studies and R & D work on fuel-cell technologies have been done by the DRDO and not the by the Navy. The Navy is just the operator and end-user, and it is not bothered by which AIP system is easier or cheaper to develop or acquire.

2) If you ask ANY Indian Navy submariner about his preferences for commanding a particular type of SSK, the reply will be unanimous: give me a Class 209/Type 1500 SSK any day over the Type 877EKM Kilo. The reason is very simple: any CO will want to have a centralised command and control system at his disposal and this comes in the form of the combat management system (CMS) on board the Class 209/Type 1500 SSK, In contrast, there is no such thing as the CMS on board the Kilo (in case you've been on board one of them you would realise this). Post-1991 the Ruskies have realised this and therefore the Amur 1650 is the first such diesel-electric SSK to have emerged from Russian naval design bureaux that has a centralised CMS. Therefore, the opinions among Indian Navy submariners is not divided and today everyone swears by the design/performance superiority of the Class 209/Type 1500 SSK over the Kilo.

3) The talks that you have mentioned about L & T building a second line of SSK fabrication are just that: talks. It has been a vendor building submarine sub-assemblies for the past few years but it is not a complete submarine platform builder and as such cannot qualify as a prime contractor for making submarines. As for the need for domestic competition, I sincerely think India cannot anymore endure such luxuries (i.e. duplication of effort and infrastructure) as the country cannot anymore have access to low-cost weapons (as it used to until 1991) and today has to prioritise the acquisition of capital-intensive weapon systems as resources are getting increasingly scarce. And the reason why MDL takes a long time to make a warship is not the fault of MDL, but the entire industrial supply chain that is controlled by the MoD. Were MDL to become a public-listed company it would have the same production efficiency as L & T.

4) You can call for as many modules as you want, but what the Navy wants has been clearly specified in its RFI. Therefore, what you or I may want to be on board does not matter at all in this case. While the RFI calls for an SSK with larger displacement, the sphere of operations for this SSK will be the same, i.e. in littoral waters, and not for deeper waters. Diesel-electric SSKs or AIP-equipped SSKs never do ocean patrolling as a rule. That is left to nuclear-powered submarines. Having a heavier SSK doesn't automatically translate into the vessel being destined for ocean-going patrols.

5) The procurement cost for the Akula 2 SSGN is from the Ruppee-Rouble debt settlement mechanism while that for the ATV is under DRDO funding as it will be only a technology demonstrator and not an operational submarine. But the shore-based infrastructure created by the Navy in Vizag for supporting the operations of nuclear-powered submarines are counted as 'establishment costs' and therefore fall under the ambit of the Navy.

Prasun K Sengupta said...

Regarding the Nerpa SSGN story I don;t find anything wrong with it. The prime contractor in this case Amursky Shipyard will deliver the SSGN to the end-user-cum-operator, the Russian Navy. Only after the Russian Navy commissions it into service will the SSGN be 'leased' to the Indian Navy. But the Russian navy will always be its rightful owner and therefore the SSGN will have to first enter service with the Russian Navy. The Russian officials are absolutely right in what they've stated, only that they haven't elaborated on how the lease process works.

Anonymous said...

I thought L&T is building the ATV?

Austin said...

1 )Its just cost effective to standardize on the AIP technology ( MESMA or Fuel Cell ) for across its submarine fleet.

From what I understand and know the IN is yet to decide on which AIP technology it should be looking at to standardize on

2 ) I have met a few submariners and have asked the question and I can tell you opinion are not the same , well there is no doubt that Type 1500 has CMS and better crew amenities and comfort compared to Kilo ,but Kilo has its own plus point , it can dive deeper , it has better endurance ( specially with the new Indian developed batteries ) , is a very silent submarine to operate and with latest update has better sensors and weapons system.

There is no across the board advantage that each enjoys over the other.

An retd IN chief when put the same question had mentioned to me that Kilo is something he would opt for.

It was though a BIG Mistake on our part not to go ahead with a fleet of 6 to 8 Type 1500 fleet as we had hoped for.

Thats the lost decade as far as submarine building capability goes in the country

3 ) From what I understand for 2nd line of sub the Indian Navy needs both AIP and VLS Cells

4 ) Bharat Karnad new book "Indias Nuclear Policy" states that we will lease 2 Akula SSGN

5 ) Point taken on the lease aspect , its a done deal

Anonymous said...

prasun, was jf17 displayed at aero-china u juz came back from? is china inducting it?? i heard plaaf is unhappy with it

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Anon@6:36AM: L & T is a major sub-contractor for the ATV project and has supplied sub-assemblies, all of which were shown at L & T's booth during DEFEXPO 2008. Final assembly of the ATV took place at the Vizag-based naval shipbuilding yard OWNED by the Indian Navy. Thus far, Mumbai-based MDL is the only shipyard in India that has got expertise in fabricating submarines. Therefore, which entity has prime responsibility for building the ATV and integrating all on-board systems is anyone's guess. What is also not known is which shipbuilding design consultant/architect will validate and certificate the ATV's design. This is because the ATV has been a DRDO project and the Indian Navy has nothing to do with it, and therefore even the Naval Design Bureau has NOT supplied any inputs for the ATV project. In conclusion, what you have is an ATV designed by someone from somewhere without any acknowledged competency, and assembled by a shipyard that has had no prior experience in building any submarine, leave alone nuclear-powered. And to top it up, it is supposed to have VLS cells for launching 8,500km-range SLBMs that have yet to be developed. All in all, a very questionable and risky undertaking in progress over the past decade and i therefore would not be surprised at all if an operational Made-in-India SSBN emerges only by 2018. If India has to resort to foreign industrial/technological tie-ups with foreign shipbuilders for building much smaller diesel-electric SSKs, I have very grave doubts about any Indian shipyard having any capability of fabricating a much larger and more complex SSBN or SSGN all by itself.

To Austin: Regarding the Navy's follow-on batch of new SSKs, the RFI that I have seen clearly mentions the need for an AIP propulsion system but in the sub-section dealing with the SSK's weapons package there's no mention of any VLS-launched BrahMos. The primary weapons package remains only for torpedo tube-launched weapons like torpedoes and multi-role cruise missiles, along with vertically-launched anti-helicopter missiles.

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Anon@8:15AM: The JF-17 was displayed only in scale-model form this time, but its elements like the fly-by-wire flight control system, glass cockpit, fire-control radar and stores management system were displayed. Also shown was a functional JF-17 cockpit simulator. The PLA Air Force or the PLA Naval Air Force won't be inducting the JF-17 into service not because it is inferior, but they have their own procurement priorities. But to be inducted into service by the PLAAF, PLAN Air Force and the PAF will be the JL-9 tandem-seat supersonic lead-in fighter trainer.

Anonymous said...

problem with the russian lease of
nuke sub to india is that nuke subs can't b transfered to other countries and if russians and indians publically acknowledge it there r fears that other nations will make fuss over it so better is to deny such comments and keep things in wraps and thats what india and russia is doing

Prasun K Sengupta said...

I don't think that's true because the Soviets already created the precedent by leasing the Charlie-1 SSGN to India in the late 1980s. Therefore, leasing the K-152 Nerpa to India should not create any controversy. Nor can such leasing arrangements be kept a secret and the present Indian Navy Chief already confirmed the leasing arrangement early last December on the eve of Navy Day. Therefore there is nothing more to be kept under wraps. So, if anyone now, whether from Russia or India, says there will be no lease or transfers of any nuclear-powered submarine from Russia to India, that person is effectively saying that the Indian Navy Chief lied to everyone last December. And that as we all know is not true.

Anonymous said...

or it may happen first russian navy commission nerpa and then transfer it to indina navy

Anonymous said...

to prasun

there is not mauch difference between type 209/1500 and type 214 subs ,just include AIP and TAS and advance sensores in type 209/1500 it becomes type 214

cuz both have similar shape and dissimilar displacement but type209/1500 has less displacement cuz it doesn't has AIP and after adding aip it get same displacemnet as of type214

and socrpene is a newer desingn compared to type214

Anonymous said...

guys, theres some update on the atv stuff. goto idrw.org, and its there. i dunno the exact source but u guys can check it out.

pks, i noe u gotta tough time answering comments here but just a short one from me; any truth about a second atv thats in advanced stage of construction in hazira?

just answer mine and few more, then soak ur fingers in some hot coconut oil. it will fell better for 2moro's q&a session

Prasun K Sengupta said...

As I mentioned above, the ATV has not been built at Hazira, but at Vizag, where final assembly has taken place. Only the sub-assemblies have been fabricated by L & T at Hazira. And until the design integrity of the ATV has been proven (which will be done by 2012), no one in his/her right mind will begin work on building a second ATV.

Anonymous said...

macha, nanba, prasun en chellam, both SAUDI and UAE are part of a stupid, ill fated coalition called 'friends of pakistan' and they have already dissapointed Pakistan by not offering to provide any cash to Pakistan, but are pushing pakistan to get cash from imf. remember it was pakistans last option to get cash from imf (plan c). there first plan was to get cash from china / usa and both declined. second place they turned to was fop, and these 'friends' asked pakistan to turn to imf. now it is imf that has agreed to aid pakistan with 7b. pakistan least want imf package coz of the strics spending rules but they got no choice coz only left with around 2 weeks worth of cash. ok so now u tell me nanba, what indication u got saudi/uae gonna lend some money above the imf loan? maybe defferment in oil payment possible but not cash n it is cash they need to fund these projects. think about it macha........

Prasun K Sengupta said...

Financial aid need not always come as cash aid. It can also become a line of credit being extended. Both the Saudis and the UAE need Pakistani military support, particularly in terms of human resources. The UAE Air Force is heavily dependemt upon the PAF in terms of both operational and technical manpower, and the same goes for the Royal Saudi Land Forces.

Anonymous said...

this sounds new to me i thought they r dependant on USA for all this training., where did pakistan came from?

ok maybe they r dependant on military support (not technical) so does that mean they r gonna pay for pakistan to buy submarines? macha, even credit as u said is a problem as pakistan is at this crisis because it is struggling to pay up its past loans!!!! and thats why they are asking saudi and uae for deferment. saudis have not agreed yet but in case they agree to defer those oil payments, u think on top of that they gonna give new money to buy submarines?

Prasun K Sengupta said...

Yes macha. Because one day when the Royal Saudi Naval Forces goes for submarines, it will look to Pakistan for technical assistance and manpower supply. Regarding the UAE you must take note that while the UAE Air Force is almost totally dependent on the PAF in terms of technical manpower and aircrew (yes, more than 70% of UAEAF F-16 Block 60 pilots are on deputation from the PAF and that's why the US export control laws regarding those F-16 Block 60s are the toughest ever), when it comes to the UAE Navy, the dependence is almost total on the Indian Navy. This is how the UAE practices military diplomacy and it has been doing so since the late 1980s. That's why the Indian Navy's warships make goodwill visits to the UAE at least thrice every year.

Anonymous said...

macha, USA wil never allow saudi to get submarines because they want 2 protect their fleets interest in the gulf region.

ok lets not argue too long macha, but let me ask u this plainly so please answer logically: are u saying that if pakistan wanna buy 3 of this type 214 ssk submarine saudi and uae are gonna fund the purchase? and maybe even fund other defense purchases that pakistan wanna make?

Prasun K Sengupta said...

But don't you worry macha. Pakistan is hoping that India will quickly finalise the plan for implementing the Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India gas pipeline, now that the Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline is almost dead. There is no need to fight your enemy macha, especially if you can buy them over. That also seems to be the strategy of President Zardari, who strongly favours economic union (like a single market) between Afghanistan, India and Pakistan.

Anonymous said...

of course i worry its our nation... ok so how is Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India related with pakistans inevitable financial crisis and their purchase of type 214 ssk submarine?

Prasun K Sengupta said...

On the contrary macha, the US would love to see the Saudis buying submarines like the Type 214as these submarines can then regularly exercise with the US Navy in the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea and such exercises will greatly help the US Navy refine its littoral warfare capabilities. Regarding the Pakistani Type 214s, the contract for procuring them was signed last November. The first tranxche of progress payments have already been made. The rest of the payments will be made over a seven-year period. So there's no immediate need for hard cash for making payments for the submarines. The IMF loan is like a bridging loan to enable the country to pay back its debts over the next two years only. It is only a balance of payments crisis in the near term. It does not mean that Pakistan's real economy is ion trouble. That is why the Saudis and UAE will continue to make strategic investments via FDI, especially in the several infrastructure development projects that would shortly be announced. Details of all these are already available on-line at the websites of Pakistan's national newspapers.

Anonymous said...

i personally like zardari because he is extremely stupid and that works to our advantage. he is easily influenced and just speaks his mind out without thinking. like he called kashmiri militants as militants than also the sarah palin blunder where he wanted to hug her.. thats the kind of prez pakistan shd have. a guy juz interested in him self and his pocket and make aome quarters happy. maybe next prez must be governer of punjab mr. taseer. u saw his pictures and daughters pictures everywhere? sweet ah!

Anonymous said...

ok anyway we will see how it goes. but i gotta feeling their plans gonna sink. maybe 2 years time i will dig out this thread n show to u

Prasun K Sengupta said...

Zardari is not stupid, macha. Nor was Musharraf. I have yet to come across a Sindhi who can be described as being 'stupid'. They are renowned for their business acumen. Musharraf is a realist as he is a Mohajir and not part of the clique of feudal Punjabis like Nawaz Sharif. Don't forget that it was such Punjabis like Sharif and Zia-ul-Haq that brought in Shariah law into Pakistan and made it an Islamic Republic. Not even the founding fathers of Pakistan has imagined their country to become an Islamic Republic.

Anonymous said...

ya i know that and i know the sindhis are shrewed bunch f people but not all. this zardari is actually been certified as a bit mentally unfit by a british hospital. because in jail he went thru hell. the guy is a fruitcake. i think u r overestimating him grosly

and i know that it was punjabis who radicalised pakistan and even the isi but thiskinda guy like taseer wont go far in that aspect. u should see the pictures. here i will give the link
http://www.exbii.com/showthread.php?t=348131

Anonymous said...

macha u c his daughter drinking and playing the fool.. iknow actually the radical ones are the people who are bad behind the stage but this guy has been exposed..... if he becomes prez and imposes islamization then everyones gonna question him with those pictures.. and his cute daughter shehrbanoo must wear burka

Anonymous said...

i never said musharaf was stuid. he was an ok guy who actually meant well for pakistan... 100x better than this dakku zardari

Anonymous said...

there are a lot of stupid sindhis. maybe u cannot find in malaysia but go to india and see. if everyone is so smart then sindh will be a germany or something close.

Prasun K Sengupta said...

Ok Macha, time for me to hit the bed now as I've got to attend a defence electronics expo tomorrow morning and attend a briefing on the Saab 2000 AEW & C in the afternoon.

Anonymous said...

ok good night

Sontu said...

Prasun,

I some where read that Type-212 had a high-tech non magnatic hull(hence can fool a MAD detection gear on MR&ASW craft like Tu-142 with IN)...where as Type-214 has a conventional magnetic hull and Germany earlier refused to sell this Non-magnatic hull technology to India ...may be due to US pressure..do you have any info on this ?

And now Type-214 has better depth capability than any of Indian conventional SSK ,except the SSN Nerpa.

The question is does this Type-214
really pose a threat to IN by having capability to sneak in Indian shores and fire a mid range Nuke tipped cruise missile at it's will, using it's AIP it will be able to sail undetected for a longer time and hence will be able to strike even cities of Easter Indian shores ?

Thanks,

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Sontu: ASs far as I know all hulls of warships are de-magnetised by degaussing in order to avoid magnetic influence mines. The MAD operates on a totally different principal and has nothing to do with hull magnetism of any vessel.
Regarding the maximum operating depth of the Type 214, this won;t give the SSK any edge as the Type 214s of the Pakistan Navy will be operated almost entirely in shallow waters in depths much less than 200 metres. What is required to deter such SSKs from intruding into India's territorial waters is a network of SOSUS-type seabed-based fixed ultra low-frequency or even low-frequency sonar systems. The NPOL is already working on such a system since such a seabed-based sonar network is a MUST when one operates a fleet of nuclear submarines. So this SOSUS type of sonar network will definitely be deployed by the Indian Navy throughout India's coastline in future. If I'm not mistaken the DRDO already confirmed this sometime earlier this year.

Shriya said...

Ok thank you dear. so training is done in Russia at present? The new simulators will be acquired from Russia? I heard some company in India was developing them on partnership. is it manufactured by them (forgot who)