Sunday, August 2, 2009

China-Made Radars Being Delivered To Pakistan






38 comments:

Anonymous said...

when did you get slides from? Just want to see what else this company makes.

Anonymous said...

just see what drdo or BEL has built compared to ylc2 radar
even the rohini radar technology bought from foreign company

Anonymous said...

prasun, tell me one thing...does Scorpene have an X-shaped rudder? is it a new version?

Vikas said...

Prasun
It will be great if you could give a paragraph of your expert comments on such slides. eg a summary of how they are in comparison to the indian acquisitions etc.

Regards
Vikas

Anonymous said...

REally good post. A small correction, these radars have already been delivered along with the US made TPS-77s.

Anonymous said...

>>even the rohini radar technology bought from foreign company

what BS. go speak to the program director for Rohini, at LRDE and you'll quickly learn that its indian thru and thru.

and for YLC 2 level, BEL already builds the PSM-33MK2 derived from Thales tech a long time back.

the next gen systems being developed at drdo and bel (which is spending huge amounts on capex in FY09 and FY10 and boosting R&D to 10% of sales from 5%) are all AESA which make this ylc 2 look primitive in comparison.

Anonymous said...

>>To above.Chinese are not making AESA radars? You seem to know little. "Primative" is not the correct word.

why dont you educate yourself about the differences between AESA radars?

and its not primative but primitive.

the chinese have been working on AESA radars for several years but remain behind contemporary standards as achieved in the west, and what india is operationalizing with 3 different AESA programs.

the chinese approach is to incrementally develop and promptly publicize different radars each with a modification. this is a good structured approach but creates a lot of hype for people who confuse it with radical innovation and the process is expensive and hardly cost effective.

the important thing is to see actual specifications and performance. eg, the above radars which is posted by prasun is inferior to systems available on the world market, let alone developed for internal use.

take the Master A MFCR for instance or the LRTR from Israel, both of which have served as "learning experiences" for LRDEs own radars.

is there even one system operationalized by china comparable to either? the answer is no.

now before you start cribbing that india is leveraging lessons learnt from others, it may be of interest to you to know that the same approach was taken by china in the 80's and 90's when it snapped up then available russian and european tech by the bushel bag and reverse engineered its own systems from EW, to radars to sonars. now that tap is off - but for india the tap is open and india is bypassing the lead time in old gen slotted radars and operationalizing on AESA. unfair perhaps, but its the reality.

Anonymous said...

hi i just wanna ask - do u now reckon that ATV will eventually be an operational submarine with IN, in contrary to what you suggested some time ago?

no worries about anything. we are all here to discuss for fun and knowledge and only childish fucks would poke at a non issue eg. prasun is chor etc.

Nava said...

Prasun:

This might be too broad, but could you give me a sense of where China stands in terms of radar technology compared to the west? How long will it take them to catch up, and how much of it is actually indigenous as opposed to Russian technology being license(or not so much) produced?

Thanks

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Anon@4:47PM: From CETC Int'l's 2009 Product Directory, mailed to me by the company.

To Anon@6.46PM: No, it does not. The first Malaysian Scorpene is currently on its way to goodwill stopovers at Karachi and Kochi (after departing Jeddah) and will arrive at Malaysia's Port Kland on September 3. Will then be able to get a first-hand look at the SSK then.

To Vikas: Each of the slides is quite self-explanatory in terms of capabilities and performance parameters. They will be deployed north of the Shakargarh Bulge (in the Deosai Plains, Lippa and Neelam Valleys, and the Bugina Bulge). On the Indian side the corresponding radars are the aerostat-mounted L-band EL/M-2083 radars, and a few THALES-built TRS-2215 and TRS-2230 long-range airspace surveillance radars. The principal gapfiller radar to be deployed in future by the IAF will be the Rohini S-band 3-D CAR.

To Anon@8:13AM: You don't have to believe a word of what I've stated umpteen times about the ATV being a technology demonstrator. Instead, just do the following:
1)Read two of Admiral (ret'd) Arun Prakash's Op-Eds in recent past issues of FORCE magazine in which he clearly explains how and why to 'operationalise' follow-on production versions of the ATV as both 8,500km-range SLBM-equipped SSBNs as well as hunter-killer SSGNs. This p[ropjected future nuclear-powered submarine fleet will translate into at least six SSBNs and 12 SSGNs.
2) Read various official interviews given by the DAE with regard to the ATV's on-board PWR, which has been officially been described as a technology demonstrator.
3) Read the OUTLOOK article on the ATV at: http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?261048
After reading the contents about the above weblink you should ask only one simple question: will the hopelessly paranoic civilian decision-makers of the Govt of India ever allow a fully operational n-powered at sea with a fully-loaded complement of nuclear warhead-armed SLBMs? As it is, they've not yet allowed even the Strategic Forces Command access to the intricacies of assembling a fully-armed nuclear warhead for land-based ballistic missiles, so what is the guarantee that they will allow a ready-to-launch inventory of SLBMs to go on board a submarine? India therefore has a very long, long, long way to go before the existing trust deficit between the Govt of India and the DRDO on one hand, and the Strategic Forces Command can be bridged in order to ensure the existence of a proven, tried and credible triad of n-weapons arsenal. This is exactly what I was referring to some time back during an interesting discourse I earlier had in this blog with Dr Sanjay Badri Maharaj on the glaring existing deficiencies in India's nuclear command-and-control procedures.

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Nava: China has over the years nurtured the existence and growth of a truly sprawling military/serospace R & D infrastructure and was also pragmatic enough to 'import' hundreds of experienced scientists and skilled engineers from the ex-Soviet Union/CIS throughout the 1990s. On top of that, China also established specialised 'technology parks' in cooperation with countries like Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Slovenia and Kyrgyzstan in the same period, which brought into China an enormous and mind-boggling amount of military industrial R & D expertise at extremely favourable financial terms and conditions. Even today, China is willing to completely buy-over from Ukraine the entire design and production-engineering data packages of the turbofan which Ukraine has developed for the Russian Yak-130 LIFT aircraft! One could not find today a more perfect example of such types of strategic investments being made by any other country on a global and massive scale.

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Vikas: the KLC-6 airborne SAR is already operational on board four modified Tu-154 aircraft as a battlespace surveillance system-cum-ground moving target indicator (like the IAF's EL/M-2060P SAR pod). The KLC-6 will also go on board the WZ-2000 UAV now being developed by Chengdu Aerospace Corp.

Anonymous said...

Just One Shark In The Deep Blue Ocean Raja Menon s article in outlook
"
These challenges are recognised by the navy and referred to as
---->battle space management’ problems. The 'Soviet navy had similar battle space management problems arising due to different reasons????????, but built their entire navy to win just that one battle. The Chinese have followed this catastrophic example by putting their new SLBMS into a ----->cave???????"

------------------------------
would u b able to elaborate on these issues

Anonymous said...

China has over the years nurtured the existence and growth of a truly sprawling military/serospace R & D infrastructure and was also pragmatic enough to 'import' hundreds of experienced scientists and skilled engineers from the ex-Soviet Union/CIS throughout the 1990s. On top of that, China also established specialised 'technology parks' in cooperation with countries like Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Slovenia and Kyrgyzstan in the same period, which brought into China an enormous and mind-boggling amount of military industrial R & D expertise at extremely favourable financial terms and conditions. Even today, China is willing to completely buy-over from Ukraine the entire design and production-engineering data packages of the turbofan which Ukraine has developed for the Russian Yak-130 LIFT aircraft! One could not find today a more perfect example of such types of strategic investments being made by any other country on a global and massive scale.
______________________________
a few more examples on this would b very interesting to read

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun,
I appreciate your comments for the readers' questions. Those are really informative to people like me. Thanks very much indeed.

What do you think about Mr. Praful Bidwai's recent article in Rediff? Always he in his articles degrade India's achievements, never appreciate India's strength. Ok, Nuclear Submarines are very costly, we spent a lot of money for its R&D. But we cannot just keep idle saying that we love peace when some of our neighboring countries are poking us from all the sides. So whenever I see his article I am always skeptical. In his recent article he says "Present at the function were 143 Russian engineers, designers and consultants who were crucial participants in the project. So much for the 'indigenous' technology claim." How precisely he knew there were 143 Russians present in that function? Did he present in Vizag during the ceremony? How much truth is there in his article?
Your comments please.

Anonymous said...

what BS. go speak to the program director for Rohini, at LRDE and you'll quickly learn that its indian thru and thru.

are all AESA which make this ylc 2 look primitive in comparison.
----------------------------------
u r writing BS not me.
everyone knows that rohini technology license is imported here is link

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/08/truth-about-rohini-radar-from-prasun-k.html

chinese already have built
(nebo svu's)aesa radar clone moreover they have other PESA RADARS as well for SAM systems
here is link

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-IADS-Radars.html

which long range mobile radar BEL/DRDO have built on their own
none except rohini radar this too of tech bought from foreign company

the tin shiled radar in IAF is imported too

MJ said...

Prasun K Sengupta Sir, i have few questions for you if you can kindly entertain them

On what platform Pakistan is planning to introduce the KLC-6?

1)Fighter aircrafts like JF-17/Fc-20
2)some Pakistani or imported UAV
3) modified Y-8 aircraft as a battlespace surveillance system

And I think that aerostat-mounted L-band EL/M-2083 is a better solution then any of these radars



How effective is this YLC-6 radar when based on aircrafts like Tu-154 or Y-8 (I am assuming this radar is scale able according to the platforms capability of power and payload)in comparison to the British ASTOR Sentinel R1 Airborne Stand-Off Radar

MJ said...

Pakistan has already purchased JY-11, JYL-1, (earlier version of the self propelled YLC-2V) YLC-2 and JL3D-90A radars. These radars serve as Acquisition Radars for HQ-12/KS-1A (Which lost to spada-2000) and HQ-9 / FD-2000 high-altitude missile air defense system.

These purchases were done independent of any commitment to purchase HQ-9 / FD-2000 SAM, but such a purchase will make sense

Let’s wait see what future holds for Pakistan.

Does Pakistan operates some aerostat based radars

MJ said...

Anonymous said..@Sunday, August 02, 2009 6:46:00 PM "does Scorpene have an X-shaped rudder? "

Only Marlin SSK (new version offered to PN based on Scorpene)have X-shaped rudders

Anonymous said...

drdo/ADA has failed the country ,drdo has build missiles but all other major systems have not lived upto mark

no PGM/standoff munition

no howitzers,naval guns

no good tanks(sorry to say arjun and ex tank are both 50% foreign)

no IVF

no long range naval/land radars,all licensed

no MFDs,chaffs or flare dispensers for aircrafts

no cruise missiles till today(no need to say how long nirbhay will take to operation)

all submarines are being imported

all naval ships are built with several parts imported

LCA/hjt36 not ready even after over 8.5 years since first flight
--------------------------------
all these systems are being imported

as far as ATV is concerned BARC is seperate organisation

Anonymous said...

as far as ATV is concerned BARC is seperate organisation which produced nuke reactor

MJ said...

Thanks for adding the Brochures of JY-11, JYL-1

I hope that you will soon clarify the remaining questions

MJ said...

Sir is true that German company, Lurssen, is acting as an agent for Government of Brunei to sell three Nakhoda Ragam class corvette and Lurssen officials are in Islamabad for the third time in that many months.

What is the possible price for the these ships? and how much capable these ships are?

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To MJ: The Northrop Grumman-supplied radars are all aerostat-mounted. Two out of the three Royal brunei Naval Force OPVs are up for sale and Lurssen has the mandate to dispose them off. Each of them has eight MM-40 Block 1 Exocets and 16 VL-Seawolf SAMs, plus 76/62 main gun.

Anonymous said...

andrew beta wrote: u r writing BS not me.
everyone knows that rohini technology license is imported here is link

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/08/truth-about-rohini-radar-from-prasun-k.html

--------

andrew beta,

just copy pasting a link is not the truth. you have not even seen rohini radar i bet or even sat in its control room to know what it is.

original 3D CAR was JV between PIT and LRDE. now, rohini radar is advanced derivative of 3D CAR which replace all original JV component with new antenna and stabilisation system designed in india.

--------
>>>chinese already have built
(nebo svu's)aesa radar clone moreover they have other PESA RADARS as well for SAM systems
here is link

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-IADS-Radars.html

--------------

dont quote BS from ausairpower. same fellow was claiming india has s-300 system and that R-77 PD is operational.

------------

andrew beta wrote:
which long range mobile radar BEL/DRDO have built on their own
none except rohini radar this too of tech bought from foreign company

-------------

if you were not full of BS you would realise BEL/DRDO were not required to make long range mobile radar on own, since PSM-33MK2 was developed already and IAF wanted more low level radar which is why indra radar was made. then indra 2 was made. then rajendra.

it is question of what service wants and what service asks.

andrew beta, no tech for rohini radar was bought from anyplace.

--------
andrew beta wrote:
the tin shiled radar in IAF is imported too
---------

and you learnt this today?
andrew beta there are many long range AESA in development at BEL/DRDO but since ur so busy living internet life, you will never find out about them.

cheers!!!

sachin_sathe said...

prasun

Arihant will be the detterent force till a proper SSBN with an ICBM is cunstructed.The ICBM part is the easier one of the 2.The real test of the DGND(IN) and DRDO alongwith GOI will now face the real Test of getting where they are intending to go within a reasonable timeframe.

Taking into account the Testing period of 3-4 years for Arihant i would think tht the plan is to have 3 SSBN's by 2025-2028 i.e a full 15 yrs from now. And focus will be more on building up tactical force levels iu.e no. of ssk's and SSGN's till the first real proper SSBN is built. I think next 2 subs will determine and possibly disclose(partially) wht is the finite definition of SSGN for GOI and IN.wht do u think?

The current deterrent would have to suffice till then. And i would like to believe with the seriousness shown by Govt. , DRDO and the armed forces with regards to the strategic force structure i would like to think tht the trust-levels would reach a point which would allow installation of nuclear warheads on SLBM's on a routine basis.

wht do u think?

Anonymous said...

FC-20 M-MRCA Emerges

The first single-seat FC-20 prototype was rolled out by CAC last December
By Prasun K. Sengupta

The FC-20 will be able to carry 4.5 tonnes of weapons payload, and will come equipped with 11 hardpoints for carrying a wide range of air combat missiles (both within-visual-range and beyond-visual-range) and PGMs. The FC-20’s performance parameters include a maximum combat radius of 2,540km (1,370nm) in a hi-lo-hi mission profile, or of 1,310km (710nm) in a lo-lo-lo mission profile when carrying a 1,810kg (4,000lb) weapons payload.

.......................


CATIC has not released official figures so it is all speculative. The only authentic reference in regards to FC-20 weapons load is from ex-CAS when during an interview he had stated that “FC-20 can carry more weapon load than F-16....”. Now F-16A/B operated by PAF can carry maximum ordnance close to 7000KG so wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that FC-20 can carry the same amount if not more???????????

Anonymous said...

there are many long range AESA in development at BEL/DRDO but since ur so busy living internet life, you will never find out about them.
-------------------------------
nothing except bakvaas

which long range aesa drdo/bel developing?that too on their own?

and if there is aesa radar is being developed then why there is need to buy elta2048 mfstar for navy and MRSAM?

bel is still making LW08 radar on license for p15a

coastal survillence radars have been imported with TOT from italy

all naval
radars freget m2em,lw08,elta2038,mfstar are of foreign origin

and if after sometime you claim MFSTAR/green pine has been developed by drdo/bel then you better remained submerged in your foolish thoughts

Anonymous said...

"dont quote BS from ausairpower. same fellow was claiming india has s-300 system and that R-77 PD is operational"

You know little. India has S 300. Not a secret. Rather trust ausaurpower then anyone on her.

Anonymous said...

FC-20 M-MRCA Emerges

The first single-seat FC-20 prototype was rolled out by CAC last December
By Prasun K. Sengupta

The FC-20’s performance parameters include a maximum combat radius of 2,540km



How is it possible even F-16 Block 52+ with CFT and 600 gal EFT have combat radius of 1800km in air to air mode

Anonymous said...

nothing except bakvaas

which long range aesa drdo/bel developing?that too on their own?


andrew beta, when bade bolte hain, to bache like you should shut up, suck their thumbs and listen.

there are many aesa radar at process in drdo/bel.

and if there is aesa radar is being developed then why there is need to buy elta2048 mfstar for navy and MRSAM?

because andrew beta, different radars are made for different thing and mrsam project was launched before these other project.


bel is still making LW08 radar on license for p15a


andrew beta, the navy asked for LW08 radar to keep costs low.

coastal survillence radars have been imported with TOT from italy

andrew beta, coastal surveillance radars are figment of your imagination for now. media reports only say all this. reality is navy and CG are still deciding what to procure.

all naval
radars freget m2em,lw08,elta2038,mfstar are of foreign origin


andrew beta, rohini and aslesha are both of indian origin.

and if after sometime you claim MFSTAR/green pine has been developed by drdo/bel then you better remained submerged in your foolish thoughts

andrew beta, dont shit your diapers and make a fool of yourself when adults speak.

there is no MFSTAR or GP in production in india. there is MFCR and LRTR and both radar are different from gora systems because they use local tx/rx and sp. you bacche log dont know such things because you are still 17 years old and living on mommy daddys pocket money. when you grow up you will be told all this.

Anonymous said...

You know little. India has S 300. Not a secret. Rather trust ausaurpower then anyone on her.

bacche, india saw trials of both s-300 pmu and s-300 v and said no thanks and is makign own ABM system

ausairpower guy just takes everything printed on internet and does analysis. sometimes hit, sometimes miss.

Anonymous said...

india saw trials of both s-300 pmu and s-300 v and said no thanks and is makign own ABM system
---------------------------------
ya aajkal according to empty headded people like u whatever equipment armed forces buy is made in india

hopeless id**t

Anonymous said...

"bacche, india saw trials of both s-300 pmu and s-300 v and said no thanks and is makign own ABM system"

Ok, Fas.org is wrong too. lol

Prasun K Sengupta said...

I can state with certainty that the S-300PMU was never even considered for procurement by India. The same also goes for the V-2500 system as well. Regarding the Rohini and Revathi, yes its R & D phase was indeed heavily influenced and helped by Poland's PIT, but logic would guggest that in the production engineering phase almost all if not all the required components and LRUs were redesigned and customised to suit the unique QRs of the Indian end-user in order to ensure full operational sovereignty. And why not? Ultimately, both the Rohini and Revathy will be ordered in large numbers, with an estimated production run of 200+. Given such production volumes, it makes economic sense to indigenise as much of the radars as possible. Remember, indigenisation is not all about building 100% of the system in-country, but building enough to make economic sense while ensuring 100% operational sovereignty over the system's availability.
Additionally, both the Indian Army and IAF are highly impressed by the aerostat-mounted EL/M-2083 L-band gap-filler radars and as a consequence, earlier plans for procuring the SMART family of gapfiller radars from THALES have since been completely abandoned.

To MJ: The KLC-6 is likely to be installed on board the WZ-2000 UAV that Chengdu Aerospace Corp is developing for TWO prospective end-users: Pakistan Air Force and the Turkish Air Force.

To Anon@12:2AM: The J-10's performance parameters were publicly revealed by CASIC at last year's Airshow China in Jhuhai in information boards/posters showcased at the expo. The FC-20 is estimated to have performance parameters superior to the J-10A/B but for the moment, both CATIC and CASIC believe that the J-10A/B's performance parameters can be 'customised' to suit an export customer's unique operational qualitative reqmts.

Anonymous said...

Prasun K Sengupta said...
The KLC-6 is likely to be installed on board the WZ-2000 UAV that Chengdu Aerospace Corp is developing for TWO prospective end-users: Pakistan Air Force and the Turkish Air Force.

how many WZ-2000 UAV will be sold to to paf? and from when these will be operational?

Anonymous said...

to prasun

some people say this

" india saw trials of both s-300 pmu and s-300 v and said no thanks and is makign own ABM system"
---------------------------------
a missile with out seeker is nothing so

which seekers PAD,AAD employ and from where these seekers are coming simple answer russia

or you want to say russians themselves don't know how to use their own seekers in missiles,if those russian seekers work well in indian designed missiles why won't those seekers work in russian designed missiles,


moreover there was no sweet smell of corruption in buying s300pmu or v2500 like in MRSAM and also MRSAM there was not even competitive bidding was allowed claimed by CAG

Anonymous said...

Prasun, india did evaluated the s-300 vm, s-300 pmu series both from russia to determine their strengths and weakenesses for its advanced air defense system & ABM both.

both systems didnt meet operational needs and off the record, trials were regarded as dog and pony show.

and you are wrong about rohini & revathi. if you want more information, you are welcome to contact the LRDE program director (Rohini).

for your information, there was no involvement with PIT for these radars, when 3D CAR was developed, it was india which did signal processing and did joint development for the antenna only.

these radars are fully indian.

andrew cristaforo,

you are a teenager fool, so i will not waste my time with you. for your information, seekers in PAD/AAD are not russian also.

russia design house (AGAT) assisted india in developing architecture for one seeker, other seeker india made on its own.

also, media reports on CAG are bunkum. original CAG reports only talsk of 1 batch of missiles not all russian missile in indian inventory.

FAS.ORG is BS. its mil section creator john pike left FAS to found global security which is also in rubbish because of lack of funds.

it is best you complete your education.