Schematics of ATV, Scorpene SSK & Project 28 Corvette
26 comments:
Aadi
said...
Thanks Prasun. Sorry for a bit off topic, in your latest article in force you have wrtten..
"The PAF has to date committed to acquiring 150 JF-17s in its present configuration (which has a single-axis fly-by-wire flight control system for yaw, and not for pitch or roll)"
Can you confirm that it has a single axis FBW flight control for yaw and not for pitch or roll. If yes can you elaborate a bit more.
Prasun K Sengupta sir Is it true that PN is now opting for the five Type 041 Yuan SSK from china and three Marlin SSK from France along with up \gradation for Agosta 70 to Agosta 90B systems?
Nice post. Does the Shock,Noise & Vibration lab whose pics u posted is the lab which validates noise-suppression and other noise reduction systems for the navy? Does it hav a hydrodynamic lab of its own?
The P-28 report by ajai shukla states tht a surface to surface missile (AShM) is going to be installed can u comment on tht?Also comment on P-28's Air Defense Fit.
Do post the consept drawing of this corvette with these upg'ed specs.
does firing tactical land attack brahmos from a submarine makes sense ?
submarine is supposed to be undetectable. brahmos's life span is only 300 seconds and a sub firing that would have travelled 100+ metres in that time so enemy can figure out where the sub would be for launching counter attack
To Sachin Sathe: Yes, this was one of key RDT & E labs established by the DRDO with Russian expertise in the late 1980s. An enormous amount of non-recurring R & D expenditure was inevitably incurred in the process. When viewed in conjunction with similar R & D expenditures incurred to operationalise the IGMDP (since 1984), small wonder that the country became nearly bankrupt by 1989-1990. Mind you, such R & D funding details of both the IGMDP and ATV projects are still not in the public domain and therefore several non-governmental Indian and foreign interested parties still have no idea of how much funding has been allocated to date for such R & D ventures. There was no need for an India-based hydrodynamic lab as the entire hull-design was validated in Russia. There is an excellent article on the ATV project by RADM (ret'd) Raja Menon in which he convincingly explains the background of the ATV project, why it will remain a technology demonstrator in the hands of the DRDO for a long time, why the DRDO and not the Navy is in charge of this project, and what prevents the Indian Navy from operationalising its own fleet of nuclear-powered submarines (i.e. the still unresolved issue of civilisn/military nuclear command-and-control hierarchy). You can access this article at: http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?261048 Regarding the Project 28 ASW corvette, its principal operational mission will be to guard the sea lane approaches to naval harbours. Consequently, this corvette will replace the existing Abhay-class ASW corvettes and will always operate under the air defence umbrella provided by coastal air-defence artillery networks and will therefore NOT be equipped with any MR-SAMs. The only vertically-launched SAM it will have on board will be the Barak-1, this being a point-defence system to neutralise the threats from sub-launched sea-skimming anti-ship cruise missiles like the Club-S/M, C-802 and MM-39 Exocet. As far as volume surface/air-search radar goes, the Revathi variant of the Rohini 3-D CAR is under development and a lot more performance validation data is still being gathered to optimise this radar for extended operations at sea, since it will be operating in a high corrosive environment. In addition, the corvette will also have twin mast-mounted long-range IRST systems for which a competitive tendering process is now underway. While the HMS will be the Humsa-NG, the encasing fibre-glass domes are being imported from the UK as indigenous solutions will not be available for the foreseeable future. The stern-mounted active/passive ultra-low frequency sonar too will be of imported origin as there is no indigenous core technological competency available for sourcing such sensors locally. The Nagan towed-array sonar and the Humsa-NG HMS are both low-frequency systems, and a full generation behind the ultra-low frequency sonars now available from the US, Germany and France.
To Aadi: Yes, I confirm it. Nothing has changed as yet.
To Anon@9.48PM: No, the Pakistan Navy's requirement is for a coastal SSK to replace the Agosta 70Bs, for which the Class 214 has already been selected. The Marlin SSK (Navantia's S-80) and the Type 041 Yuan-class SSKs are in the same displacement category as the Agosta 90B and as such the Pakistan Navy is not considering them for procurement. In any case, SSKs can hardly counter nuclear-powered submarines. Both the Agosta 90B SSK and the Scorpene SSK have the same SUBTICS combat management system from THALES, while the Class 214 SSKs and the Indian Navy's four upgraded Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs use the very same ISUS-90 combat management system from Germany's ATLAS Elektronik.
To Anon@9:55PM: The Type 041 Yuan-class SSK is a 're-engineered' Type 636 Kilo-class SSK, but unlike the Type 636 SSK, the Yuan-class SSK has a centralised combat management system. I have the schematics of the Type 039G Song-class and Yuan-class which were published a few years ago by the US Naval Institute's PROCEEDINGS in-house magazine.
To Anon@10:21PM: Excellent cutaway! Many thanks. It graphically illustrates the complexity of designing a densely-equipped SSK. No small feat.
To Anon@6:18AM: Only if the 'enemy' has fully operational space-based ocean recce satellites and LRMR/ASW aircraft in the immediate vicinity of the BrahMos-launching submarine will the latter be detectable. If the submarine approaches its pre-designated missile-firing location undetected then there's absolutely no chance of the submarine being detected by any kind of manned/unmanned maritime recce platform. The chances of being detected are 1 in 10,000.
Prasun K Sengupta said..I have the schematics of the Type 039G Song-class and Yuan-class which were published a few years ago by the US Naval Institute's PROCEEDINGS in-house magazine.
PN is opting for the stealthy and high speed MRTP-33 armed with 4 harpoon block II with 120 km and China has opted for 50+ stealthy and high speed Type 022 armed with 8 C-803 with 180 to 280km range.
To Anon@11:42AM: You can view the Marlin/S-80 specs at Navantia's website.
To Anon@11:45AM: The Barak-1 is effective only against subsonic anti-ship cruise missiles. It won't be able to intercept the BrahMos as its target-acquisition/fire-control system is optimised/programmed only for intercepting subsonic anti-ship cruise missiles. In India, the Barak-1 has to date been successfully tested ONLY against subsonic non-sea skimming missiles like the P-18/Silkworm/Styx-2. Interceptions conducted both at daytime and nighttime against such surrogate targets were more than 90% successful. But against missiles like the C-802A or MM-40 or SM-39 or Harpoon or Club-M/S? That remains a big question mark as such test-firings have NOT YET been carried out.
To Anon@11:48AM: The Pakistan Navy MRTP-33s are meant for use as rapid intervention craft by the Naval SSG for stealthy special operations. As such, the MRTP-33s are not armed with any anti-ship cruise missiles at the moment, although they could be fitted with them in future. The Indian Navy currently operates the Super Dvora Mk2 rapid intervention craft, but the Chinese CSTC-built Type 022 Hobei-class catamarans are a class apart and are not used for special operations, but for coastal/littoral anti-ship strike. They're very effective for defensive anti-ship strike operations in and around island-based territories.
To Anon@11:53AM: Technologically, the Yuan is one full generation behind all the three other European SSKs you've mentioned. Furthermore, the Yuan has been designed for operations in deep waters, while the Agosta 90B with AIP, Scorpene and U-214 offer superior performance param,eters in both deep waters and shallow waters.
"Yuan is generation behind" is just words, with no way to back up. Chinese have said Yuan has AIP. http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/?p=14
Maybe its half generation or two generations behind, but no one outside of Sino military knows that.
Indian sub force is stagnant because of reliance on foriegn submarines, which take along to sign the deal then to induct in navy. The new scorpene is case in point. Overbudget and delayed.
The Chinese will upgrade the Yuan at faster rate then India churns scorpene subs out and importantly the French and Germans are willing to sell to anyone, when new pak subs are deployed Chinese will take a peak at them.
Prasun da, do you have any info. or any direct link (as you have about ATV project) ,from where we can get some idea about construction stages of chinese SSKs & Nuclear-powered submarines?
To Anon@4:42PM: I have it on record from at least two Southeast Asian naval chiefs who were briefed on the Type 041 Yuan-class SSK as recently as last moth that there is no operational AIP system with the PLA Navy, and that the AIP system to be operationalised in future (three years from now) will be fuel-cell-based, which is being co-developed along with Russia's Rubin Central Marine Engineering Design Bureau.
ABHINABA: The best source of credible information on the PLA Navy is the annual publication of the US Defense Dept, titled China's Military Power'. You can download it from the US DoD's website. Other specialised information resources include the US Navy's publication, called PROCEEDINGS.
26 comments:
Thanks Prasun. Sorry for a bit off topic, in your latest article in force you have wrtten..
"The PAF has to date committed to acquiring 150 JF-17s in its present configuration (which has a single-axis fly-by-wire flight control system for yaw, and not for pitch or roll)"
Can you confirm that it has a single axis FBW flight control for yaw and not for pitch or roll. If yes can you elaborate a bit more.
Prasun K Sengupta sir
Is it true that PN is now opting for the five Type 041 Yuan SSK from china and three Marlin SSK from France along with up \gradation for Agosta 70 to Agosta 90B systems?
Do you have any data and schematics of Yuan Class Submarine??
Does Yuan Class Submarine carry AIP??
What is weapons carrying capability of Yuan Class Submarine?
What is its range and endurance with and without AIP?
Scorpene cutaway.
http://www.naval.com.br/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/scorpene.jpg
prasun
Nice post. Does the Shock,Noise & Vibration lab whose pics u posted is the lab which validates noise-suppression and other noise reduction systems for the navy? Does it hav a hydrodynamic lab of its own?
The P-28 report by ajai shukla states tht a surface to surface missile (AShM) is going to be installed can u comment on tht?Also comment on P-28's Air Defense Fit.
Do post the consept drawing of this
corvette with these upg'ed specs.
does firing tactical land attack brahmos from a submarine makes sense ?
submarine is supposed to be undetectable. brahmos's life span is only 300 seconds and a sub firing that would have travelled 100+ metres in that time so enemy can figure out where the sub would be for launching counter attack
Yep PN has opted for the 041 Yuan SSK from china to counter ATV
To Sachin Sathe: Yes, this was one of key RDT & E labs established by the DRDO with Russian expertise in the late 1980s. An enormous amount of non-recurring R & D expenditure was inevitably incurred in the process. When viewed in conjunction with similar R & D expenditures incurred to operationalise the IGMDP (since 1984), small wonder that the country became nearly bankrupt by 1989-1990. Mind you, such R & D funding details of both the IGMDP and ATV projects are still not in the public domain and therefore several non-governmental Indian and foreign interested parties still have no idea of how much funding has been allocated to date for such R & D ventures. There was no need for an India-based hydrodynamic lab as the entire hull-design was validated in Russia.
There is an excellent article on the ATV project by RADM (ret'd) Raja Menon in which he convincingly explains the background of the ATV project, why it will remain a technology demonstrator in the hands of the DRDO for a long time, why the DRDO and not the Navy is in charge of this project, and what prevents the Indian Navy from operationalising its own fleet of nuclear-powered submarines (i.e. the still unresolved issue of civilisn/military nuclear command-and-control hierarchy). You can access this article at: http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?261048
Regarding the Project 28 ASW corvette, its principal operational mission will be to guard the sea lane approaches to naval harbours. Consequently, this corvette will replace the existing Abhay-class ASW corvettes and will always operate under the air defence umbrella provided by coastal air-defence artillery networks and will therefore NOT be equipped with any MR-SAMs. The only vertically-launched SAM it will have on board will be the Barak-1, this being a point-defence system to neutralise the threats from sub-launched sea-skimming anti-ship cruise missiles like the Club-S/M, C-802 and MM-39 Exocet. As far as volume surface/air-search radar goes, the Revathi variant of the Rohini 3-D CAR is under development and a lot more performance validation data is still being gathered to optimise this radar for extended operations at sea, since it will be operating in a high corrosive environment. In addition, the corvette will also have twin mast-mounted long-range IRST systems for which a competitive tendering process is now underway. While the HMS will be the Humsa-NG, the encasing fibre-glass domes are being imported from the UK as indigenous solutions will not be available for the foreseeable future. The stern-mounted active/passive ultra-low frequency sonar too will be of imported origin as there is no indigenous core technological competency available for sourcing such sensors locally. The Nagan towed-array sonar and the Humsa-NG HMS are both low-frequency systems, and a full generation behind the ultra-low frequency sonars now available from the US, Germany and France.
To Aadi: Yes, I confirm it. Nothing has changed as yet.
To Anon@9.48PM: No, the Pakistan Navy's requirement is for a coastal SSK to replace the Agosta 70Bs, for which the Class 214 has already been selected. The Marlin SSK (Navantia's S-80) and the Type 041 Yuan-class SSKs are in the same displacement category as the Agosta 90B and as such the Pakistan Navy is not considering them for procurement. In any case, SSKs can hardly counter nuclear-powered submarines. Both the Agosta 90B SSK and the Scorpene SSK have the same SUBTICS combat management system from THALES, while the Class 214 SSKs and the Indian Navy's four upgraded Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs use the very same ISUS-90 combat management system from Germany's ATLAS Elektronik.
To Anon@9:55PM: The Type 041 Yuan-class SSK is a 're-engineered' Type 636 Kilo-class SSK, but unlike the Type 636 SSK, the Yuan-class SSK has a centralised combat management system. I have the schematics of the Type 039G Song-class and Yuan-class which were published a few years ago by the US Naval Institute's PROCEEDINGS in-house magazine.
To Anon@10:21PM: Excellent cutaway! Many thanks. It graphically illustrates the complexity of designing a densely-equipped SSK. No small feat.
To Anon@6:18AM: Only if the 'enemy' has fully operational space-based ocean recce satellites and LRMR/ASW aircraft in the immediate vicinity of the BrahMos-launching submarine will the latter be detectable. If the submarine approaches its pre-designated missile-firing location undetected then there's absolutely no chance of the submarine being detected by any kind of manned/unmanned maritime recce platform. The chances of being detected are 1 in 10,000.
Prasun K Sengupta said..I have the schematics of the Type 039G Song-class and Yuan-class which were published a few years ago by the US Naval Institute's PROCEEDINGS in-house magazine.
Can you upload them please?
Do you have any details about the Marlin SSK?What is its range and endurance etc?
Prasun sir, Is Barak-1 tested against the Club-S/M, C-802 and MM-39 Exocet or Brahmos?
Prasun sir, What is its success rate in Indian tests so far and how real were they
PN is opting for the stealthy and high speed MRTP-33 armed with 4 harpoon block II with 120 km and China has opted for 50+ stealthy and high speed Type 022 armed with 8 C-803 with 180 to 280km range.
What are Indian plans for similar boats?
How good is Yuan-class SSK when compared to the
1)Agosta 90B SSK
2)Scorpene SSK
3)U-214 SSK
To Anon@11:42AM: You can view the Marlin/S-80 specs at Navantia's website.
To Anon@11:45AM: The Barak-1 is effective only against subsonic anti-ship cruise missiles. It won't be able to intercept the BrahMos as its target-acquisition/fire-control system is optimised/programmed only for intercepting subsonic anti-ship cruise missiles. In India, the Barak-1 has to date been successfully tested ONLY against subsonic non-sea skimming missiles like the P-18/Silkworm/Styx-2. Interceptions conducted both at daytime and nighttime against such surrogate targets were more than 90% successful. But against missiles like the C-802A or MM-40 or SM-39 or Harpoon or Club-M/S? That remains a big question mark as such test-firings have NOT YET been carried out.
To Anon@11:48AM: The Pakistan Navy MRTP-33s are meant for use as rapid intervention craft by the Naval SSG for stealthy special operations. As such, the MRTP-33s are not armed with any anti-ship cruise missiles at the moment, although they could be fitted with them in future. The Indian Navy currently operates the Super Dvora Mk2 rapid intervention craft, but the Chinese CSTC-built Type 022 Hobei-class catamarans are a class apart and are not used for special operations, but for coastal/littoral anti-ship strike. They're very effective for defensive anti-ship strike operations in and around island-based territories.
To Anon@11:53AM: Technologically, the Yuan is one full generation behind all the three other European SSKs you've mentioned. Furthermore, the Yuan has been designed for operations in deep waters, while the Agosta 90B with AIP, Scorpene and U-214 offer superior performance param,eters in both deep waters and shallow waters.
Thanks Prasun K Sengupta
"Yuan is generation behind" is just words, with no way to back up. Chinese have said Yuan has AIP. http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/?p=14
Maybe its half generation or two generations behind, but no one outside of Sino military knows that.
Indian sub force is stagnant because of reliance on foriegn submarines, which take along to sign the deal then to induct in navy. The new scorpene is case in point. Overbudget and delayed.
The Chinese will upgrade the Yuan at faster rate then India churns scorpene subs out and importantly the French and Germans are willing to sell to anyone, when new pak subs are deployed Chinese will take a peak at them.
Prasun da, do you have any info. or any direct link (as you have about ATV project) ,from where we can get some idea about construction stages of chinese SSKs & Nuclear-powered submarines?
To Anon@4:42PM: I have it on record from at least two Southeast Asian naval chiefs who were briefed on the Type 041 Yuan-class SSK as recently as last moth that there is no operational AIP system with the PLA Navy, and that the AIP system to be operationalised in future (three years from now) will be fuel-cell-based, which is being co-developed along with Russia's Rubin Central Marine Engineering Design Bureau.
ABHINABA: The best source of credible information on the PLA Navy is the annual publication of the US Defense Dept, titled China's Military Power'. You can download it from the US DoD's website. Other specialised information resources include the US Navy's publication, called PROCEEDINGS.
Prasun,
It is Nerpa on the fourth picture, not Scorpene.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/SnSuXrvRDNI/AAAAAAAAA7w/geeWWGuCtMk/s1600-h/Nerpa+SSGN+aka+INS+Chakra+on+Sea+Trials.JPG
Regards
That's right. No one claimed it is a Scorpene. The photo filename I myself gave to the photo too says it is the Nerpa.
The two naval chiefs could be wrong? I am assuming neither of them are Chinese naval chiefs.
Equally I could be wrong, by trusting Chinese sources highlighted in Chinese military blog.
Type 041 Yuan-class SSK was never offered for sale so chances of ......
Annual publication of the US Defense Dept, titled China's Military Power' is way of mark
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