If the latest story (http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/03/stories/2008100356310900.htm) appearing in THE HINDU newspaper regarding the ‘Tejas’ Light Combat Aircraft’s multi-mode radar (MMR) being the ELTA-supplied EL/M-2052 AESA is indeed true, then I have no choice but to congratulate myself and have the last laugh. For I had predicted the radar’s selection as far back as Aero India 2005 and was subsequently extensively ridiculed by several wannabes in several chat forums. I guess it is now time to demand my pound of flesh and eat it all as well. Afterall, what goes around comes around. Right?
Am enclosing below some photos of those radars that will or are likely to be inducted into service in the near future, including the EL/M-2052, BARS-29 PESA from NIIR Tikhomirov (first shown at Aero India 2005), and the THALES-built RDY Mk3.—Prasun K. Sengupta
Am enclosing below some photos of those radars that will or are likely to be inducted into service in the near future, including the EL/M-2052, BARS-29 PESA from NIIR Tikhomirov (first shown at Aero India 2005), and the THALES-built RDY Mk3.—Prasun K. Sengupta
38 comments:
no one asked question about which aircraft being considered for MRCA
to air chief
if elta2052 is option then v better buy MIG35 for mrca and use
elta2052 on mig 35 which will b the most safe,cost effective
sengupta is the mki going to be upgraded?
pls, only confirmed data per what you know for sure!
thanks!
To Anon@3:09PM: Well, what I know for sure is that it will definitely be upgraded. How? Officially, it will be re-equipped in future with AESA, which has already been officially confirmed several times by several senior IAF officials. Its AL-31FP engines will also be uprated and have higher TBOs (see my latest story on MFS/FGFA where details of this engine are stated), and then and only then will the IAF consider arming the Su-30MKIs with the BrahMos. Also, the Litening-2 LDP will be replaced by the Litening-3 LDP, which will enable the aircraft to launch its standoff precision-guided weapons from higher altitudes. The self-protection suite too will be upgraded by installing the new-generation suite (including the missile approach warning system) that is now being co-developed by EADS and DARE and which BEL will series-produce. Another optional item that COULD go on-board is the towed expendable decoy system (Russian, or German or British or Israeli). For standoff reconnaissance the Su-30MKI will soon be equipped with ELTA's EL/M-2060P pod-mounted synthetic aperture radar and ELBIT Systems' CONDOR pod-mounted LOROP oblique photography optronics that can beam down the imagery in real-time via secure data links. And once the PHALCONs arrive, the two-way secure tactical data links on-board (procured from Tadiran Inc of Israel) will be activated. That's all I know for sure.
@Prasun thanks.
How? Officially, it will be re-equipped in future with AESA, which has already been officially confirmed several times by several senior IAF officials.
Is there a source for this? I dont remember reading anywhere that AESA is confirmed for MKI by IAF official? Which IAF official said this?
Its AL-31FP engines will also be uprated and have higher TBOs (see my latest story on MFS/FGFA where details of this engine are stated), and then and only then will the IAF consider arming the Su-30MKIs with the BrahMos.
Why would we need higher power engine to just carry 1 Brahmos + few AAMs? Its below MKI MTOW easily.
To Anon@6:06AM: The AESA part was first mentioned in Sept 2002 during the induction of the first batch of Su-30MKIs by the then CAS ACM S Krishnaswamy, who said that as cutting edge technologies mature and become available they will make their way on board the Su-30MKI. Subsequently, the DRDO's Chief Controller for R & D Dr A Sivathanu Pillai also echoed this remark, followed by the former IAF CAS ACM S P Tyagi as far back as 2006. So the AESA part is fairly documented. The IAF is looking at sometime in 2009 to begin in-house competitive evaluations of various AESA options for the Su-30MKI. Even Tikhomirov NIIR and Phazotron will at the next Aero India 09 expo unveil their competing offers for AESA options for the Su-30MKI.
Regarding the BrahMos on board the Su-30MKI, the requirement is not just for 1 BrahMos and some AAMs, but for the aircraft to carry underslug loads like one BrahMos, two Kh-31P anti-radiation missiles, 2 types data link pods, 1 EW pod, plus the complement of 6/8 air combat missiles. All in all a pretty heavy offensive payload package that sometimes has to be flown at low-altitude flight profiles at times. Hence the requirement for higher-thrust engines.
to sengupta
bars 29 is a PESA radar and a similar tech PESA radar is on rafale now is rbe2 pesa
what r the differences between detection ranges between bars29 and rbe2 pesa radars
rafale has smaller radar diameter
its around 550mm in dia
and mig 29 has 700mm dia
is the diameter of bars29 bigger than rbe2 radar
if yes then the bars29 must have greater detection range than rbe2 pesa radar
please explain
To Anon@6:06AM: The AESA part was first mentioned in Sept 2002 during the induction of the first batch of Su-30MKIs by the then CAS ACM S Krishnaswamy, who said that as cutting edge technologies mature and become available they will make their way on board the Su-30MKI. Subsequently, the DRDO's Chief Controller for R & D Dr A Sivathanu Pillai also echoed this remark, followed by the former IAF CAS ACM S P Tyagi as far back as 2006. So the AESA part is fairly documented. The IAF is looking at sometime in 2009 to begin in-house competitive evaluations of various AESA options for the Su-30MKI. Even Tikhomirov NIIR and Phazotron will at the next Aero India 09 expo unveil their competing offers for AESA options for the Su-30MKI.
Prasun, but those are generalist remarks. There is not single documented statement of an AESA being chosen for IAF by any of the documented officials.
Only possibility mentioned is Irbis which is PESA not AESA.
Coming to Brahmos, why would MKI need to carry such a load of pods?
In all pics of Brahmos on MKI shown, it is usually shown with just one Brahmos and few AAMs or only a few Brahmos (earlier). MKI is not likely to be as heavy loaded as you suggest since it will have negative impact on drag and reduce range by huge amount.
bars 29 is a PESA radar and a similar tech PESA radar is on rafale now is rbe2 pesa
Bars is not similar tech to RBE-2. The RBE-2 uses cheaper tech (radant phase shifters with pin diodes), which are not as effective as the Bars design.
to anon at 8.58 pm
then the bars29 pesa is more effective and has better range than rbe2 pesa then y buy rafale
and russia is developing AESA RADAR FOR su 30 series of aircraft
its zhuk ase with 1662 t/r modules
bigger varient of zhuk ae offered for mig35 for mrca
Anon: source?
I havent read su-30 zhuk ae variant anywhere?
then bars 29 radar is better than rbe2 radar
to anon at 9:23:00 AM
its not zhuk ae for su 30
zhuk ae is a prototype
its zhuk ase for su 30 with 1662 t/r modules
zhuk ae29 is prototye with 680 t/r modules shown on aero india 2007 with mig35
zhuk ae35 will b the production radar for mig35 it will have 1068 t/r modules
and zhuk ase will b for su 30 and it will have 1662 t/r modules
read for more on air power australia
" Phazotron Zhuk AE/ASE: Assessing Russia's First AESA".
To All Above: The RBE-2's AESA variant has already been flight-tested on a Mirage 2000 testbed. Have got photos of the RBE-2's AESA version nd will upload them in the near future. Phazotron's AESA for retrofit on the Su-30MKI as well as for the Su-33 and Su-35 was shown at the MAKS-2007 expo in scale-model form. However, flight qualification has yet to be completed. Tikhomirov NIIR's Irbis-E PESA was showcased as well furing MAKS 2007 and R & D work is at an advanced stage for the AESA variant. This is what is likely to be showcased during Aero India 2009.
To Anon@8:55AM: No one has officially stated which AESA will be chosen for the Su-30MKI simply because, as I said earlier, internal evaluations are still underway based on RFIs (not RFPs) issued in 2005. A shortlisting of potential AESA contenders will be completed only by 2009. All that has been officially stated is that it will be logical to one day see the Su-30MKI with an AESA on-board. Regarding the BrahMos on Su-30MKI, what has been released to date by BrahMos Aerospace to date is only a generic illustration and generic scale-models of the type displayed during aerospace expos. I have a definitive illustration of the Su-30MKI carrying all the weapons, not just 1 BrahMos. Will be uploading that before October 8. The air-launched variant of BrahMos will definitely require a data link pod for providing mid-course navigation updates (when the targets are moving) to the BrahMos, and the Kh-31P anti-radiation missiles (which will be carried for those sorties requiring suppression/destruction of hostile air defences) will require the Siva HADF pod for target target acquisition/designation. Cheers!
actually " air power australia"
provides better technical evaluation of various aircrafts
without differentiationg eastern or western aircrafts
compared to bharat rakshak or livefist,trishulblogspot which r written by journalists or individuals who have no tech background or just expressing their own thinkings
to prasun
just ell me one thing that which
radar has better detection range
bars29 pesa
or rbe2 pesa currently on rafale
cuz both r pesa radars and probably have same size
Prasun, Thanks for your reply. All I was pointing to was that there is no official statement from IAF anywhere about MKI upgrade, let alone AESA. Isnt this correct?
Anon@9:34 am, having read through the article, it makes it clear that Carlo Kopp anticipates an AESA for Su-30 but it is not offered yet. If there is a link where radar company speaks of it, I will be eager to look at it.
Anon@9:04 Pm,
Rafale will be offered with RBE-2 AESA, not PESA version. Similarly, expect Gripen NG to be offered with Caesaer-AESA and EF with CAPTOR-E.
Anon@9:42 AM,
Bharat Rakshak has many technical writings if one goes through webpage on missile and on forum.
But let us not engage in fighting over which website is best.
Also, does anyone know of the range of the N011M Bars radar on Su-30 MKI. Webpages on internet are very speculatory.
The BARS-29's brochure distributed at Aero India 2005 states that it has a detection range of 120km against a 5-square metre target. The RBE-2 PESA's detection range is similar. But the RBE-2's AESA variant alog with the CEASAR from EADS will be the most interesting non-US AESA radars to look out for. The RBE-2 AESA, however, will begin entering service by 2011, earlier than those non-US AESAs being proposed by EADS and Ericsson Microwave. In addition, the THALES RBE-2 AESA will feature a very high degree of sensor fusion with the THALES-developed IRST sensor and this will give the Rafale a very discrete but reliable non-cooperative target recognition (NCTR) capability against stealthy airborne threats like cruise missiles.
Prasun,
And ranges for the BARS on the Su-30 MKI? Do you have something sure or are there estimates?
I do think we should either buy RAFALE or Eurofighter. Based on your post, RAFALE seems a good choice.
To Anon@11:40AM: The most convincing statement regarding the NO-11M BARS' demonstrated/achieved range came way back in in mid-2002 at the 2002 Farnborough Air Show when Mikhail Simonov, Chief designer of Sukhoi OKB then mentioned during a press conference that the BARS on the Su-30MKI flying testbed had achieved a high-flying airborne target detection range of 305km. It can't be any more reliable than that.
Prasun, did he mention which target?
Is there a Interview anywhere (link/article) which mentions this in more detail?
Thanks
to sengupta
i just wanted to know that
the detection ranges for bars29 and rbe2 pesa radars and which radar has better detection range
i never asked for the range of
rbe2 aesa radar
definitely rbe2 aesa will have more detection range than
rbe2 pesa radar
but if bars29 pesa and rbe2 pesa
radar have similar detection ranges then THEIR AESA VERSIONS SHUD ALSO HAVE SIMILAR DETECTION RANGES
THE NEW ZHUK AE35 WILL HAVE 1068
T/R modules and will have detection range of 5*5 meter square at 200 km
but what will b the detection range of rbe2 aesa compared to
zhuk ae35
to sengupta
THALES RBE-2 AESA will feature a very high degree of sensor fusion with the THALES-developed IRST sensor and this will give the Rafale a very discrete but reliable non-cooperative target recognition (NCTR) capability against stealthy airborne threats like cruise missiles.
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ok prasun i have some more question
1. how do u compare OLS on mig 35 with IRST on rafale acco. to their detection ranges?
2. how do u compare infra red varient of MICA MISSILE with infra red varient OF AN AA10 ALAMO MISSILE and the same IR VERSION OF AA10 our su30mki has. new longer range version of IR AA10 missile has been shown in MAKS2007?
both these missiles have similar ranges?
3. if bars29 pesa and rbe2 pesa radar have similar detection ranges ,then zhuk ae35 must have better detection range compared to
rbe2 aesa
cuz number of t/r module of an aesa radar depend on radar diameter and mig35 has bigger radar diameter compared to rafale
so it encorporates more t/r modules of aesa radar and hence better range?
please give the answers.
The range envelopes I mentioned earlier for the BARS-29 and RBE-2 PESA were the detection ranges. In the visual spectrum, however, an IRST's detection range does not mean anything at all since the more important criteria in the visual spectrum is the continuous tracking of the target. In this area, the THALES-built IRST has a unique auto-tracking mode, as will the Pirate IRST for the Eurofighter EF-2000, and the pod-mounted IRST being developed for the Super Hornet. The Russian IRSTs from UOMZ do not have such an auto-tracking capability as yet, but I'm sure they'll develop it soon. Lastly, just because an AESA has more T/R modules does not automatically mean that the AESA has a greater detection and standoff tracking range. All it means that with a greater number of T/R modules one has several more options to operate the radar's different modes simultaneously for both air-to-air and air-to-ground applications, and at the same time undertake directional jamming, provided the aircraft has enough NiCad storage batteries on-board to sustain all such operations in one go. Thus far, only the US Navy's Super Hornet with APG-79 AESA has reportedly achieved such performance levels. In two year's time we will know a lot more once Singapore's F-15SGs equipped with Raytheon's APG-63(V)3 AESA go to AFS Kalaikunda to square off with the Su-30MKIs. The results of such engagements will be much more valuable and incisive than those experienced during EX Red Flag 08-04.
To Anon@12:39PM: Simonov's comments/remarks were quoted the very next day (after the press conference) in the Show Dailes of FLIGHT Int'l, Aviation Week & Space Technlogy, and INTERAVIA Show Daily. FLIGHT a week later did an expanded feature on the Sukhoi OKB in which Simonov was quoted as saying that the 305km range was achieved against a Tu-154-sized airborne target and it seems the radar could even count the number of compressor blades of the engines powering the airliner!
to sengupta
what about OLS on new su35bm it has detection range of 90km
new irbis e radar out range apg79
radar despite its an pesa radar
and to b jam proof there can b several seduction modes in a pesa radar like training mode and thats work very well
irbis e detection range 3*3 meter square at 400 km
apg79 range 3*3 meter square at
180km
and smaller version of irbis e radar can b equipped with mig35 and it still b competitive against aesa radars just like the bars29 a smaller version of bars for su30
Prasun,
Thanks for the info.
Very interesting! Do you have those articles by any chance, and could you post them? Only relevant parts if you have it, to save your time.
Lastly, just because an AESA has more T/R modules does not automatically mean that the AESA has a greater detection and standoff tracking range. All it means that with a greater number of T/R modules one has several more options to operate the radar's different modes simultaneously for both air-to-air and air-to-ground applications, and at the same time undertake directional jamming, provided the aircraft has enough NiCad storage batteries on-board to sustain all such operations in one go.
I think the aircraft dont carry NiCad batteries for this, but have dedicated alternators to power the electronics. These are actually a big stumbling block for designers because if the electrical systems have issue, the plane is delayed. Recent news about JSF also mentioned how it was more power hungry than expected so new alternator had to be designed.
Also does Blogger have way to keep you logged in, I keep logging in and it signs me out so I post anon.
Arvind
to sengupta
Simonov also admitted in the FLIGHT feature story that the Super Hornet would still emerge superior to the Su-30MKI due to the several network-centric features (like real-time connectivity to platforms like JSTARS and AWACS), but that in the absence of such network-centric features, the Su-30MKI would emerge superior to the Super Hornet in a none-to-one engagement.
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JSTARS,RIVET JOINT,AWACS R good and lucarative targets for r172
and r 37 missiles and f18 no match for mig 31 and su30
and those who call f 18 superhoret has net cent capability then the russian planes also have net cent capability
su 30 r also net centric cuz they also have russian data links and they work wery well
just like
su 30mki works with mig21bison
Simonov also admitted in the FLIGHT feature story that the Super Hornet would still emerge superior to the Su-30MKI due to the several network-centric features (like real-time connectivity to platforms like JSTARS and AWACS), but that in the absence of such network-centric features, the Su-30MKI would emerge superior to the Super Hornet in a one-to-one engagement. In my personal view, that perhaps explains why the IAF has decided to incorporate such NCW capabilities into the Su-30MKI with select and critical Israeli technology imports, which will grow manifold once the PHALCONs become operational.
To Anon@1:31PM: Despite the long-range of AESA radars and their ability to track more targets, it is highly unlikely that an individual pilot or even a two-man crew will be able to handle such long-range engagements, whether with one aircraft or four aircraft. Because it is a highly stressful job and requires dedicated attention on a constant basis. It is for this reason that the tasks of target detection, target tracking, target engagement prioritisation and overall airborne battle management are conducted by AEW & C platforms. The individual aircrew of a combat aircraft on the other hand are tasked with airborne systems management and flight safety, self-protection, and just engaging those targets that are allocated to them for engagement by AEW & C platforms (through tactical information data links like the JTIDS), and ensuring that the operational mission is prosecuted with success. Believe me, it is not the hardware limitations, but the biological limitations that are the main limiting factors.
for long range engagement crew just need to fire missiles and thats all they have to do
To Anon@1:37PM: You're absolutely right. Spot on. I'm sure Simonov's comments were posted somewhere on-line because I remember seeing them two years ago. Will try to dig them up for you.
To Anon@1:37PM: I meant you were spot on regarding the alternators.
Prasun, my turn to give some info as thx.
The IRST on the MiG/Sukhoi should permit tracking and engagement, out to 15 km as it has a laser ranger. So I think this is very much possible with the MKI as well.
Now where PIRATE and OSF are superior are that they have a TV Channel also and can track multiple targets. PIRATE does not have laser channel but uses passive tracking methods. OSF has laser channel, out to some 40 Km per web.
Also both have more sensitive newer gen IIR thermal. And Rafale thermal was dropped because it was older gen.
So in typical russian manner, while they may have used earlier items, in raw combat capability, OLS on Su-30 MKI is still very strong.
Also newest MiG-35 IRST makes up for some of older issues, it has a TV channel too and uses newer IIR detector (Imaging infra red) and is from NIPP corporation which previously made laser items for Russian space program.
in future conflict with pakis or some other countries US REFUSES to support both us and pakis in an conflict and if v have f18 then just think what will happen
v better stick to russian or some french hardware
to everyone
which missile is better
mica IR
or
aa10 IR
can kaveri b installed on mig 35 if v buy them
comparing rafale and mig 35
rd 33mk defeats m88 2-3
OLS on mig and irst on rafale have similar ranges
aesa radar on both fighters has similar detection ranges
both have similar range IR missiles
both r agile
similar amount of internal feul
both have glass cockpit
but rafale has payload of 9.5 tons
compared to 6 tons of mig 35
but rafale is too costly for the money, it wants 67 million
mig35 costs 39.5 million,y please explain
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